Andy Olrich 1:41
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Lean Solutions podcast. I’m joined today by my amazing host Catherine McDonald. Catherine, great to see you. How are you?

Catherine McDonald 1:49
You too, Andy. It’s been a while.

Andy Olrich 1:52
It has. Really excited and good to see you or ECU again over there in whatever part of the world you’re in. I’m obviously down here in Australia, and we’ve got a fantastic guest today coming to us from the U.S. And I’m really excited that it’s an important topic that we’re going through today. Eye contact, something that we should do more of, but it’s easier said than done. The importance of eye contact in leadership. So, Catherine, I’ll let you introduce a gentleman with a great name. His name’s Andrew Ketner, but I’ll let you tell our listeners and viewers all about him. So, thank you.

Catherine McDonald 2:28
Absolutely. So today’s guest is Andrew Ketner, and I’m going to call out the very short version of his bio, which is a lot longer. But you know, we’ve only got a little synopsis here for you today. Hopefully, we’ll figure out more as we go through the episode. Andrew will fill us in. So Andrew is a teacher, learner, writer, husband, father-so much to him-and he describes himself as something really interesting-a T-shaped person. And for anybody that doesn’t know what that is, basically it’s a person who has deep expertise in one area. So if you imagine the vertical part of a T, and who has broad knowledge and ability across many other areas. So, if you imagine that’s the horizontal part of the T. So, I love that description. I have heard of the term before, but I think it’s a lovely way to describe yourself, Andrew. So, Andrew has years of experience as a faculty member at the Expeditionary Warfare School and an associate professor at Southern University and A and M College, where he bridges the gap between academic instruction and operational excellence. He specializes in aligning complex U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps mission objectives with rigorous federal requirements management to ensure organizational compliance and strategic readiness. Andrew’s background uniquely combines high-level mentorship with the technical proficiency required to navigate the regulatory landscapes of federal defense programs. Now that all sounds so impressive and so complex, but really it’s not. Andrew’s going to break it all down for us, and we are going to talk today about something which, as Andy said, sounds a lot simpler, but actually it’s just as complex as what I have just read out. And we’re going to talk about eye contact, and we’re going to talk about specifically leading with your eyes. So, Andrew, this is a super topic, one we haven’t had before, and one I think that is going to make for very, very good conversation. So, just tell me a little bit about what what have brought you to this topic. What interests you in eye contact as as a big part of leadership?

Andrew Kettner 4:30
So, Barr said hi. That bio when I hear that, thank you for reading it out to me. I’m always, oh no, I got a lot to achieve here. But for me, when it comes to eye contact, I’ve been in leadership positions now for in the bio about 20 plus years, and something I have found to be more true than not is if I’m looking for feedback on anything, that’s the process that’s occurring, that is an eye. Idea of a new way of doing something, or a problem with my own way of implementing something I thought I understood. You really can swim in somebody’s emotions and their intellect by by just taking a moment and and engaging with them. And the longer I’m in the Marine Corps, and the more opportunities I have, the more I find that to be true. It’s it’s almost on a day-to-day basis. I find that’s more enjoyable and more true than focusing on the standard operating procedure.

Catherine McDonald 5:34
That’s excellent. We don’t we don’t get into that detail enough in terms when we talk about behaviors and habits of leaders. We actually don’t hear that one very much. Andy, has it come up for you in your work or in the past about you know what you studied, lean and leadership? Eye contact’s not one we hear much about.

Andy Olrich 5:52
No, and just in general down here. In when I say down here, Andrew, I say maybe I say that too much, but where I live in Australia, we are very strong on look me in the eye. Or if if someone’s really trying to connect with you deeply, or or a serious topic, or something really great, is they’ll you’ll see their head dip down, and I’m moving my head around to to sort of if someone’s navel gazing or looking at your shoes or something, it’s like, hey, look at look me in the eye, tell me, you know. So we find that for me, when someone says that to me, I’m okay. This is a this is something really important. Getting back to lean, so that’s a cultural piece. But getting back to lean, I was introduced to the the daily standups, so the the daily huddles and those sorts of things. And one of the first images they showed me about how it can be done in some organizations is they draw the the half circle on the floor facing where the facilitator and where all the daily visual management is. So having that, they said, if you think we’re going hard, have a look at this for standing up. That was that was even a challenge, right? Oh, we’ve got to stand up. But they had everyone to stand on that line for those who aren’t aware, and it would be your eyes need to be looking at the eyes of the facilitator. So it was about respect and and making sure that they could see that you were deeply engaged in looking at them and the content. So really important culturally for me. Yeah, it is about respect, and and I think it’s yeah absolutely with leadership is I’ll I’ll follow a leader that I respect and they and if and I’ve got their respect. I think it makes a pretty good team. So that’s where I sit.

Andrew Kettner 7:25
I think it says something too about the difficulty of the skill, which can be learned, in that we equate not making eye contact so often. It’s as if you don’t do it because it’s it can be, if used inappropriately, it can come off as weird, right? Like if you’re trying to stare at somebody’s eyes, that that doesn’t really work either. It it’s very complex in its simplicity, but it’s something that, to your point, Andy, I think we aspire to do more of at the right time. Yeah, and I just

Andy Olrich 7:59
I just wanted to drop in actually from that cultural piece. So yeah, absolutely, what you just said, Andrew. So down in Australia, our First Nations people, it is it can be the other side of that. It can be very threatening, disrespectful to even look each other in the eye at the at the inappropriate times. So there’s a thing. It’s like don’t don’t stare directly at their eyes in those certain cultures, so it’s a bit of a tricky one. So yeah, I’m keen to unpack it a bit, and in particular around lean and leadership. So

Catherine McDonald 8:29
yeah, really, actually, really good points there in terms of culture. So tell us a little bit from your experience, then, Andrew, in terms of a lean or an organization, a lean organization. What does leading with your eyes look like in practice? So you’re a leader, and you’re listening to this podcast, and you’re trying to understand what Andrew means by leading with your eyes. What does that mean to you?

Andrew Kettner 8:52
If you find that a majority of your day, maybe even minority of your day, is spent behind a computer or on the telephone, and it can be easy to say why I have to do this. It’s the world we live in so fast, but if you find that the way you’re receiving a majority or minority of your data and information is via the thing that we’re talking to right now, you’re you’re missing crucial hand movements. You’re missing is that data a blip in the the entire database because the individual that was on the line at that particular point is having a bad day, and they’ve had a bad week because something wasn’t going well for them, and on the positive side, if you’re experiencing higher than expected returns from a particular element of your process, is that only because there’s a celebration that is occurring somewhere down the line from you, maybe levels below your authority? But it’s a celebration because that that family just had a cele a celebratory event that is everyone’s motivations running high, so the data can lie, and the data data often does. You’ve got to in an in for in an informationally strong organization, you’ve got to get out and see. No matter no matter how much is pushing against that for the the Google AIs or the ChatGPTs or the Excel documents, which which are still used, it just is not going to tell you the full story. And I think we intrinsically know that. But in an organization, just just be wary if you’re the individual who’s believing what you’re seeing via something that’s not a person talking to you, looking at you.

Andy Olrich 10:51
I think he just nailed it, and it didn’t connect with me straight away with the topic. But go and see. Okay, we do that with our eyes, right? Leading with your eyes. If we’re going to be effective leaders, go to Gamba, go and see. Like that is that’s one of the core principles, right? So why that only just sort of popped up with this topic in my head to send, but I was like, yeah. And how do we do that? Well, we we have to go and see, and so that is that’s powerful. So I definitely I think for all of you out there listening, this absolutely fits in, and and not just trusting it from the desk or the data. Making sure that if you’re presenting it, are they looking away or rolling their eyes? I think that’s a really powerful symbol when you’re trying to do something. If they roll their eyes, it’s okay. Something’s gone wrong.

Andrew Kettner 11:37
And and I’m not. Why probably should come out. I am actually, as much as I’m saying this, I’m biased towards process. So I’m a logistician by trade. I appreciate a little bureaucracy in every type of system, but I’m just wary of it. And I’m I’m very impressed with the way that we can pull together data within the a computer or within a process that’s again levels from me, I’m all about it. But use that as a way to lead you towards the individual you should be talking to. Don’t don’t view that as the answer, and that that’s a gut feeling in some cases as a leader. You got to get out.

Catherine McDonald 12:20
I think it’s the same thing. So whether you’re looking at a process with your eyes, whether you’re talking to a person and you’re looking at them in the eyes, I think it still comes back to being curious about what you’re seeing straight away. So not not, and it could be an emotion you think you’re seeing in someone’s eyes, or it could be something you’re seeing in a process that you don’t fully understand. It is about that ability to pause and critically question something, and that comes back to the whole scientific nature of lean and engaging with that part of our brain, not just trusting immediately what we think we see with our eyes. Yeah,

Andrew Kettner 12:55
it’s so nice to do too. It’s I think it’s interesting in our conversation here how how nice it is to look at an Excel spreadsheet or a beautifully crafted presentation that hides so many positives and negatives, because you can control that, and that’s that’s something I’ve found is just very much wanted by subordinate. subordinates and leaders is the ability to control whatever’s going on. Chaos is so scary, and when you’re dealing with an individual who is wearing a mask, everybody wears whatever it is they want to be seen. I’m a believer in that, but the eyes masks have holes in them that you can see eyes through. I just think there’s a lot to connecting with somebody when you talk to them.

Catherine McDonald 13:46
Yeah, and you mentioned Andrew that this is a skill that can be developed, and I fully believe it because I wasn’t very good at it a few years ago. I have improved, but I’m not there yet, or is there such a thing there? But I have improved. So, but I’d love for you to tell us what you think needs to happen for somebody to get better at this practice.

Andrew Kettner 14:08
So, I’m going to say here in the United States, we’ve got varsity and junior varsity teams within our high schools, and I think if you’re an individual who doesn’t quite feel as if you’re getting the. Here’s an example: anything worth doing is worth measuring. I’m a believer in that statement. So you think, well, how can I measure my eye contact? I think on the junior varsity level, you could just keep some type of scratch piece of paper or on your own desktop, and keep accountability of yourself. Someone comes in to talk to you. Did you turn away from the computer and just look at them? If you if you did, check mark. If you didn’t, maybe there was something more important than that person trying to talk to you. You can do that throughout a day and just tally it up.

Catherine McDonald 15:00
Yeah,

Andrew Kettner 15:01
over the course of time, I hope that there’s be more tallies than not.

Catherine McDonald 15:05
It’s not so easy to get people to do that, though, is it? There’s a lot of people who don’t like. I mean, I coach leaders, and so many of them turn around and no, I’m not documenting anything. No, I’m not journaling. No, it’s just not going to work for me. No, I’m not in the habit of it. So, what’s the second option for anybody who can who struggles with that.

Andrew Kettner 15:22
I think the the varsity side of this is so I I don’t conduct leadership for this computer via empathy. I think empathy is the most important leadership quality that somebody can have, and that’s the ability to see if if possible to feel through that other individual’s moment in time, you don’t do that with a computer. So, if you’re on the varsity level and you’re engaging with anybody, and you feel the reaction of that individual appropriately, you can feel their excitement, you can feel their angst and anxieties or stress, or you can feel their nervousness for what you just said. You’re you’re getting feedback. It’s happening real time. You don’t have to keep alive for that. But if you’re someone who doesn’t like to swim around in empathy, that can be a lot of weight to put on a leader’s shoulders. You should you should want it, but if you’re not used to it, it can be tough to try to get that right and then to own it when you step into their experience for just for just a few seconds.

Andy Olrich 16:31
It can be scary too. There’s people who won’t who just naturally are with a very. I’m just trying to think of the right words at five something in the morning, but they they they feel quite vulnerable, and they even it’s very hard for them to even speak in public, let alone look someone in the eye. Especially if the conversation’s not going well, they will keep their heads down because it’s a it’s a fear thing, or that maybe they’ve grown up in an environment where if if you make eye contact with someone, that means you want to engage, and so they’ll come for you. What in in like what are you looking at? Type thing. So, I think it’s yeah, all the the empathy piece, right, is very strong. If you’re side by side with that person, and you’re both looking at that that process or that that item, that the importance there around the human connection. So, it’s not all about process. It’s all about as you’ve you’ve touched on there, and part of this conversation is around. Okay, well, we go and we go and see, seeing is believing, or we’ll go and look at this together. Any tips for people who really love the stats and it’s purely about the process? How what’s a what’s a nice way that you could make someone who is feeling a bit threatened in the moment feel comfortable to to look at this with you and and make eye contact and really have that conversation.

Andrew Kettner 17:44
So academically, we have an entire world now that exists with emotional intelligence and being able to kind of up your game when it comes to understanding when to look somebody in the eye, when to place a supportive hand on the shoulder, when to hand shake, when to have a clean desk, when to not. There’s there’s an entire world of education out there of proven and postulated ideas. So somebody that is really at a point where they they don’t feel confident in leading with their eyes, I’d say first chop some wood, get out there and and dig in some books, watch some podcasts, and reflect on where you are, and know that there is an opportunity for you as a leader to to grow in this skill, and you you will receive positive feedback the better you get at it, and be ready to stumble. Be ready to be ready to pick up the wrong vibe. Oh, that’s not what that person was trying to say. That’s okay. You know, nothing like a good leader than to make a few mistakes.

Andy Olrich 18:53
Yeah,

Catherine McDonald 18:54
yeah. You you mentioned emotional intelligence, and actually, I think so. While eye contact wouldn’t be, let’s say, on. on the kind of subscales of emotional intelligence as a heading, it’s part of some of the the behaviors, right? But I think that’s a really good thing that or a lot of organizations are doing now is investing in these emotional intelligence assessments, emotional intelligence coaching for people because I what I think I’m not sure. I don’t think this is proven. It’s probably just me, but I think that your eye contact or lack of eye contact is probably linked to other emotion intelligence competencies in a big way. So, for example, self regard, right? So, if you work on your self regard, sometimes that helps you to feel a bit more confident and competent, and then that helps you to just take the focus off yourself, like the worry off yourself, and that allows you to really think and and and look at another person and try to understand what that person is going through, like empathy. So I do think that when you understand emotional intelligence properly, it allows you to maybe see the barriers to. Some of those behaviors around eye contact or lack of eye contact. Am I? Am I? You know? Do you think that, or I could be wrong? It’s just what I think.

Andrew Kettner 20:09
I, I think that there, the ability to engage with somebody in the, and let’s in this case, we’re putting a pin in just in eye contact, is the tendons and the veins and the muscle that make the fist work, and it it is. I can look at my hand and not be marveled by the fact that all this stuff is happening in there. I just see the hand, and if you’re someone who doesn’t want to go down into that world and and understand the anatomy of your process via engagement with somebody having a heightened level of emotional intelligence that allows you to empathize with somebody in a in a certain environment, you’re you’re missing out. I I think one thing is if you’re let’s say you’re we’re taking this tooth extreme, and we have a a one single leader over a a a company, that company that does and that single leader struggles with engaging with with individuals via looking at them as they talk, or looking at the process with them as describing something. I’m I’m describing a company that is inflexible, and is hardened, because success comes from what used to be the process that was developed. I think merely having leaders that are empowered to talk with each other, face to face, and discuss the data in a deeper way is actually at the highest level an undisruptable, flexible company. Because you’re making changes every second. You’re not looking at the SOP. The SOP, the standard operating procedure, the process in place, the line of that the widgets go down. That that’s already been built. You’re as a leader, you’re thinking how do I how do I incentivize this so that I don’t get pushed out of the market by someone who is who had a small team. Well, of course, the small team engaged regularly in scrums. Of course, you can do that on large organizations too. The Marine Corps does it. Just hard.

Andy Olrich 22:15
So we’re we’re fortunate, Catherine and I, and the other co-hosts of this podcast, we get to talk to people like yourself, Andrew. And for me personally, not only do I learn so much around the technical and the aspects and all the amazing tips and tricks of those who’ve walked through the door, we also get some personal insights. And and Andrew, thank you. You’re comfortable to share around this topic. So you’ve had some experiences personally with cancer, and and in this space, connection or eye contact, empathy. We’ve got some some thing here that you’d like to share around before, during, and after cancer treatment, etc. Can you can you talk us a little bit through that for our listeners too? Because I love this the human side of all that we that we talk about and how that can be so important out of the work environment for some of these things that we bring up.

Andrew Kettner 23:06
Absolutely, and I appreciate you letting me say a few words about the past two years of my life. Public service announcement: feel, say, do. You feel something, say something, and then do something about it. That was certainly something that saved my life, but I, I have a very short story. Is I’m I’m going through. So I I was diagnosed with primary mediastinal non-seminoa germ cell tumor, which means I had testicular cancer in my chest and only there, and poor prognosis, horrifying, very scary, lots of chemo, and ended up with sternotomy. Going through cancer, I found there there’s a number of silver linings, opportunities as a 40 year old man to be given the chance to focus on the things that for me maybe I pushed it aside and and kind of checked the box. You know, I’m spending time with my family, I’m reaching out to old friends, I’m talking with the individual I work with in my cubicle next to me. But maybe I really wasn’t. And going through cancer, the way I feel about engaging with individuals, it it only heightened how impactful it can be to be with each other, and how much more satisfying that can be in the workplace to get to get feedback via people. In fact, it saved my life. I was on my my second round of inpatient chemotherapy, and my left arm-I didn’t-I didn’t know what this was at the time. My left arm had started swelling. I had a port, power port, put in to put the chemotherapy into my body to to kill this cancer, and my left arm was starting to swell. And I’m excuse me. That’s my. First round, and I was I was looking at it as as I was taking my walks, and it was nurses, not my doctor. I love my I love my doctor team, but it was nurses that had kind of observed me doing this over time. They were with me more. They were present as I was going through whatever my left arm was doing, which I was like, maybe this is just normal. And I remember one of the nurses where I was seen at Walter Reed National Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland. She said, “You know, look at me and talk to me. What are you feeling? And I told, I said, “You know, I just feel like like my hand is swollen, and I feel like I’m a little tingly in my left. Ended up, my port had developed a blood clot, and if I had powered through that, if I had not maybe taken that opportunity that she gave to me to connect with me, you know, maybe that could have dislodged. Maybe another blood clot could have started. Port got taken out quick. Blood thunder put in, and another port put in, and chemotherapy was allowed to continue. That was an individual demanding of me a moment of my time to tell her face to face, not on rounds. Not that rounds aren’t important, but I just find it very beautiful that was a nurse who I I find now have to be in the medical world for longer than I wanted to be. They’re they’re the rear the real grease that’s making this whole thing move because they’re connecting with people. So I think that would that would be something I like to share. But feels they do. Everybody listening,

Andy Olrich 26:44
public service announcement, and well done. And thank you for sharing that because that that’s absolutely the cut through there of making given the moment to actually, you know, really connect and and look at and you do. You, I’m just thinking about that now. You you look at the nurses and doctors, and and if I’m in a hospital, Touchwood haven’t been in one for a while. But if I see them coming in and they’re looking at each other, and I watch their eyes actually thinking about it now, and they’re looking at stuff, and I’m looking at their eyes, going, if they sort of close up a little bit or they open right up, I’m I’m going, hang on, what’s happening here? Because it is, it’s so much behind the eyes. Thank you for sharing that. Really, really appreciate you sharing that. And well done. Good, good job.

Catherine McDonald 27:24
Well done on getting through the last two years, and your your optimism is so great in terms of coming through something so tough, but seeing the positive side of what that I suppose the learning and the the development for yourself was and all of that, so it’s amazing and well done. Yeah, thank you. So it’s no wonder that you have the approach that you have when it comes to work and yeah, trying to influence the people around you to maybe slow down, pay attention, take just take advantage of the opportunity in front of you to increase the quality of your interactions, hence the quality of your life.

Andrew Kettner 28:04
No, I agree. I had a gentleman who I looked at. I looked to as a mentor for many, many years. Names Sergeant Major Cabrera. He’s now retired from the Marine Corps, and I had taken, I had put myself up for a a position that I ultimately didn’t receive, and that was a blow. It was a blow to my gut. But I was in a leadership position. I was a battalion, which is maybe 400 so odd Marines and sailors that I was I was assisting with as the executive officer, second in charge. And he came into the room, and this again links to this idea of connection and looking at individuals, he he goes. You know, sir, what are you doing? And even though he’s much much more my elder, the rank structure as a commissioned officer, vice him, said, yeah, I’m just I’m struggling here. And he goes, let me tell you something. Is it more important to look out among the battalion and somewhat affect everybody, or to go out of this door, go down the hallway, and go talk to a brand new 19-year-old private first class and fix their problem one on one. You’re taking that ownership on; they have an issue, and you’re correcting it. What’s what’s more impactful? He didn’t tell me the answer, but I I left that that little vignette with I think I know the answer. Don’t don’t worry about the the cloud. You you can make real effect with somebody. Just getting out behind your desk. Don’t worry about yourself and just just go help help somebody. I’ve I’ve taken that for many years now. It’s good sage advice.

Catherine McDonald 29:47
Yes, that’s great.

Andy Olrich 29:48
Yeah, and obviously with your military background, I I’m a bit of a war history buff myself, right? I’ve had family involved in both world wars, and I and. Read up a lot on that, but one of the things that I’m interested in how they kind of understood how to help and support or work keep keep troops moving through really challenging times, and and there’s a lot of photos that you get shown around when they they first early indications of shell shock, right? That and that term, and I’m sorry if this is just if this doesn’t, I don’t know. I’ll just say, but that that concept of the 1000 yard stare, right, where they’re kind of dead behind the eyes, and that that was a key. They were actually utilizing the how that person was looking through or around to help gage really where they’re at. All right, everyone was under a real amount of extreme pressure in a terrible time, but it was yeah that was one of the early indicators of yeah how what how their eyes and those sorts of things. So I think it’s such a it’s such a powerful thing, and and I I’m just reflecting so hard on this because yeah, when I really want to get to the bottom of something, I really want to see if the the group that I’m facilitating a workshop with is connected or they’re having a great or a pretty ordinary time is, I will look directly into their eyes and see what, see if I can pick out something that’s happening there. But again, I need that experience to understand and read those signals better, right? So I just think this is such a really important piece and how we learn and get the experience to know when to utilize that as a data point and and also when to challenge or when to back off and leave give them space right so for leaders who just to wrap up so for leaders who really want to utilize this amazing human centered skill what are three simple behaviors if they’re thinking of this gun well I don’t know where I’m at or what to do what what’s your what’s your guidance in a couple of minutes. How do we get going, or how do we continue?

Andrew Kettner 31:46
I I think the first thing is get get out from behind your computer. As tough as it is, the computer’s not going anywhere. Step one, get get out from behind the computer. It’s going to be there when you get back. Step two, walk and find those who report directly to you from an authority responsibility perspective. Whether you’re a project manager coming into an organization or you’re part of a cross functional team leadership structure, go talk to those people. And when you talk to those people, I’d start off by not talking about work. Build in some rapport at that very moment, and then three talk about work. So build that rapport and give it a shot. Go go and ask that individual. You you had you hadn’t seen them in two or three days, and and they were charged with following up on some client’s expectation, and and you hadn’t heard from them directly. You had heard about it, but you want to hear from them. See how it goes, and then self-reflect. If this isn’t a skill that you feel strongly about, that you’re getting the right signals off of, maybe come back and try it again on somebody else. It is a practice skill, and you don’t always get it right because people are infinitely complex. But there’s a there’s so much with just those three things that you’re going to gain quite a bit insight about your organization. Promise. Yeah,

Catherine McDonald 33:16
excellent, excellent advice. Simple to do, as in not perfectly, but simple to go out and try. I like the way you say, “Go out and try. You’ll probably feel stupid. Most people do the first thing they try and think, but if you see the value in this, don’t give up. Try again and get better at it. Excellent. Over to you, Andy. Well done, Andrew. That was that was excellent.

Andy Olrich 33:38
Yeah, thank you. And and just to touch on that. I think is let them know that you’re trying to learn something new. Yeah. Hey, I’m going to give this a go. Can you give me some feedback? Those things. It just brings that takes brings you from a manager to a leader space again. But I have this song bouncing through my head. You can’t hide your lion eyes. Right. It’s a it’s an eagle the eagle song, and and I mean I’ve heard that before my life, basically, but it’s like, yeah, it’s so true. There’s a lot of things that you can you can pull out, no matter how flash the the graph or the what you yeah the eyes can be very telling. So, Andrew, this has been I’ve really enjoyed this episode, and we’ve only got 30 minutes with you, right? So, I think I want to talk to you more about this, but for our listeners out there, how can we get in touch with you to find out more and really start to see more about this great topic?

Andrew Kettner 34:29
I love to connect people on LinkedIn. That’s the only social website that I’m part of. So if you look up Andrew Ketner on LinkedIn, I get messages. I respond to messages, and I look forward to to hearing about how everybody’s increased awareness of eye contact matters to them, and and I hope they all take on the charge. It’s worth it.

Andy Olrich 34:55
Wonderful, wonderful. Well, I think that’s a really good moment to to leave that there. So. Thank you again, Andrew. We’ll put some details about you in the show notes, Catherine. Always great to catch up with you, mate. And I really look forward to our next episode. So, any any final final comment from you, Catherine?

Catherine McDonald 35:13
Oh no, just this is high value. This is amazing. Just I think just as as we said, go out and try what Andrew is recommending. Don’t put too much pressure on yourself. But if you’re listening to the Lean Solutions podcast, you must be interested in all of you know these leadership and lean things we talk about. So just give it a go. Just give it a go this week, tomorrow, and see how you go. And keep keep going, keep going with the consistency to develop these skills. Wonderful. Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Kettner 35:36
Thanks, Catherine. Andy.

Andy Olrich 35:38
All right. Catch you later. Thanks, everybody, and thanks very much for tuning in.