Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:00

Just pick one process in your organization that you think you understand well, and then go and sit with the person that actually does that. Don’t say anything about how they’re doing their work. Feel free to ask questions, be curious, but don’t tell them how they’re supposed to do their work, because remember, the fundamental thing about a GEMBA is what is actually happening versus what we think is happening. We want to know the reality. Ask them how, how they have experienced it, how they live with it every day, what they like, what they don’t like, what they wish they could see differently about

Patrick Adams  00:42

you. Hello and welcome to this episode of the lean solutions podcast. My name is Patrick Adams, and I am joined by our amazing host, Shane Dauphin bow. Shane, how you doing?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:58

I am well, sir. Thank you very much doing well. You are looking spiffy in that, in that new podcast. Thank you.

Patrick Adams  01:06

You’re really far away, though I feel like you have to yell to talk to me. I mean,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  01:10

if I do end up yelling, you know, let me know, because just my mind isn’t picking up that, hey, no, the reality is you have earphones. But yes, it does look like you’re far away.

Patrick Adams  01:20

Wow, I can hear you just fine. Excellent. Okay, well, Shane, today, the topic is, bring it GEMBA for beginners. We’re going to dive into why going to the gemba, and we’re going to talk about what the gemba is. For those that are listening in and don’t know what GEMBA is, but why going to the gemba is such an important concept, and the value of going to the gemba, or when you should, or how often, or what should you do when you’re at the gemba? Those are all conversations that we’re going to have in the next 30 minutes. Are you ready?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  01:52

I am, and I will say for listening audience, even though we’re titling this going to the gemba for beginners or GEMBA for the beginners. There might be some things in here, for those of you that are more seasoned veterans that you know, might get some things, some juices flowing in your head about how you view going to the gemba. So, yeah, it’s if this is, I’m hoping this is for everyone, whether it’s Manufacturing, Service industry, health care, financial, whatever it is, we’re going to, in those tight 30 minutes, we’re going to try to touch on some things for everyone that hopefully you can apply. So get started. Patrick, what

Patrick Adams  02:27

you got? Well, let’s start. Let’s start with the definition. So GEMBA, which some people spell it, G E M, some people spell it G E, N, yeah. And I think the Japanese would translate it with an N, I think, but correct us if we’re wrong here, throw a comment in and let us know. But GEMBA. GEMBA is a Japanese phrase, and I’m actually going to use a definition that someone dropped into. I recently made a LinkedIn post about value stream mapping and how it’s so important that when we’re going to map a process, whether we’re mapping a value stream or a process, whatever it may be, that we are going out to the place where the work is happening, that we’re actually going to the place where the process is happening, and we’re following step by step, and watching and looking and asking questions to observe and understand what’s really happening. So I made a post about that recently, and again, correct me if I’m wrong. I’m not German, and I don’t know exact translations here, but this is Dr Antonio. I think it’s cress, cress because it’s, it’s, it’s like a, b, but I think it’s pronounced with two s’s. So Dr Antonio Kress, I apologize, sir if I am messing up the pronunciation, but he dropped in a definition from Kiyoshi suzaki. So that’s Kiyoshi suzaki that used this translation of Gemba, once again, I apologize if the pronunciation is wrong, but Gen, G, E, N means reality appearing, and then BA, B, A means space. So going to the space where the reality is appearing, I thought that was a really interesting, you know, a way to translate the place where the work is I’ve always translated as the place where the work is happening, where the value add work is happening, going there and actually seeing what’s happening, what’s been your experience. I mean, I mean the

Shayne Daughenbaugh  04:35

the idea behind it, the foundation behind going to the game, but and how I was trained, was it is going to the place where what you’re trying to do the reality you’re trying or not the reality, but what you’re trying to capture is what is actually happening versus what do we think is happening? Yeah, so I really appreciate that. How did you say that? The again, in the buh, the where reality is and the

Patrick Adams  04:58

reality appears. Yep, exactly. And I actually made me think about a real story where we were we were actually in a boardroom, and we had a number of executives, and then we had some management in there, and we were mapping a process, and I remember putting it up on the wall as the individuals in the room were telling me. And I remember one of the executives in the room executives in the room had said, you know, this is the step by step of how it works. And then one of the mid managers in the room said, No, that’s not how it works. And yeah, and there was, like, this kind of weird, awkward pause where it was like, Wait a minute. And of course, I’m in the back of the room, and I like, If only there was a way for us to know for sure, if only right, maybe we could go and check right. Let’s go see, and let’s actually see what reality really is. And so that’s what we did. We all stood up, we walked out to the production floor, and we watched the process, and sure enough, the mid manager was correct. There was some deviations that had happened from what the work instructions of the Standard Work said that were different. And so we, we, we learned something very different about, you know, the reality of what was happening. It was pretty interesting.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  06:13

Yeah, I really appreciate it. Again, that idea of what is actually happening versus what we think is happening, like, let’s, let’s let’s not just think things, let’s actually go there. And that’s, that’s the beauty of it. But Patrick, you’ve had more experience with this. I’m gonna, I’m gonna lean in on you just a little bit with, especially with this topic. But the idea of, hey, why? If that’s that sounds like a good thing. What you just described was, hey, there’s, there’s two things. How do we know what’s, what is the reality? Well, let’s go and check it out. So a GEMBA sounds like a great thing to do, but why do so many leaders either skip it or maybe avoid it? Maybe avoid it is better than skipping it.

Patrick Adams  06:52

I don’t know. Yeah, no, I think that that’s a you’d be surprised how many organizations that we go into. And for those that are listening, I’m hoping that you’re, you’re regularly going to the gemba, but there’s, there’s so many organizations where they don’t where leaders, whether they’re mid management, executives, you know, even sometimes frontline leaders that are not spending enough time at the place where the work is happening. And that is always a big question is, why? Why do people not do that? And there’s a lot of different reasons, but I’ll just, I’ll just start with a story about a gentleman that was a plant manager that we were talking about going and doing some regular, scheduled GEMBA walks. And he was, he, he was very open with me about, you know, transparent with some of the struggles or challenges that he had had in the past, and he he said to me, I honestly am concerned that if I go out to the gemba and one of the operators or a team leader or a supervisor asks me a question and I don’t have the answer to it, it’s going to make me look like I’m, you know, I’m not a not, shouldn’t be leading this organization. Yes, have all the answers. And if I go out there and I don’t have all the answers, I’m worried about what that, you know, the perception of what that yes, and that’s a, that’s, that’s a real thing. I think, as leaders, you know, many of us do get concerned about, like not having all of the answers. And you know, one of the things that we try to encourage leaders to do is ask questions and right and also reinforce the fact that you don’t have to have all the answers. Because, you know, in reality, those people that are at the gemba that are doing the value add work again, whether it’s in the office or in production or wherever it may be, they’re the experts. They’re doing that job, day in and day out. Of course, they know more about the work than you do, right? But why not go and be vulnerable and ask questions? Seek to understand why things are happening the way they are. Look for opportunities, not just for you to identify problems or challenges, but ask questions for them, to identify them, and ask deeper questions to understand why those challenges

Shayne Daughenbaugh  09:05

are happening. I love that. I love that because in my mind, when, when I have trained, especially working at the state of Nebraska, when we had a system of after we did a process improvement, we wanted, you know, people to go, we wanted leadership to go to where the value is happening, where the work is being made. But they have to go letting go of ego, you know? You have to go like you mentioned. I love those words, the words you used, vulnerability, yeah, you have to go with humility as well. And And this brings us to another question. Kind of flows right into, you know? How do we do the gemba? What is we know that the gemba, if the gemba is to understand the reality of where things are, how do we do it? What are we going there for? What are we looking for? We going to see, we’re going to check. What are we doing? And you and I, as we were just preparing for this, kind of had a little bit of a, you know, a back and forth about, I. I have a different idea about GEMBA than you do, but there’s they still overlap in a huge way to get what, what needs to happen. But I would challenge that, that that gentleman that I don’t want when I, when I when I trained leaders, I didn’t want them going with any answers whatsoever, like, they’re not going to fix the problem. And so let’s, let’s talk real quick about like, like, what going to the gemba can look like? What does that mean? And what does it look like? What’s, what’s your, what’s your take on it?

Patrick Adams  10:34

Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate that you brought up, because we did have a little bit of a, kind of, not a disagreement. But we, you know, we don’t have to agree on all things 100% right? And there’s multiple ways to do things. And so some people that are listening are going to maybe disagree or think differently, and that’s okay. Again, we would, I’d be more than happy to listen to your thoughts on this, and if you, you know, drop, drop a question in the comments. Shane and I are going to be keeping an eye on on the comments as always, and try to respond as best we can. But when we think about like, you know, you mentioned the word check or audit versus going right or doing a doing a GEMBA or a GEMBA walk in, in the way that we teach going to the gemba is all of those can happen in a GEMBA walk. And I think at the state of Nebraska, you’re more you, you all were more like a GEMBA was going to seek to understand, ask questions, but not never checking or auditing. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. What I’m saying is that there, I think you have to define the gemba before you go. If you’re going to go do a GEMBA walk, you’re going to the gemba I would define. What is the purpose of the Gemba walk? Why are you going? Yeah, and that’s if you’re doing a structured GEMBA walk, right? So if you’re going to do maybe you’re going to go do a 5s audit, maybe you’re going to, do you know, look for flow. Maybe you’re going to go stand in a circle, like the Ono circle, and kind of look and watch and see, look for waste, or look for break in the flow and dig in from there. So defining that ahead of time, I think, is important, but I don’t, also don’t want to take away from a leader just going out on a regular cadence, on a daily or multiple times a day, going to the place where the value add work is happening regularly, and asking questions and seeking to understand and looking for opportunities and making things better, looking for improvement. Ways to Improve. Those are all considered GEMBA walks, and so I don’t want to in my in my world, in the way that I would explain it, sure, but here’s what, here’s what I’ve seen happen that I think we have to be careful of. I worked for a plant manager at one time that only went out to the gemba when there was a problem so big quality issue, or the customer called, or, you know, upper management was going to do a tour or something. All of a sudden, the plant manager was out on the floor, and everybody knew that if the plant manager is out on the floor, there’s a problem. And so everybody’s worried. They’re all changing the way they work. They’re, you know, if he comes over by them, they’re starting to sweat. Wonder why he’s watching them. That is not what should be happening when, when leaders are regularly going to the gemba, it should never be a surprise that we’re out there. Nobody should be changing the way that they do things. We shouldn’t be stopping production and cleaning up because someone’s going to come do a GEMBA walk. That should never happen. We should go about business as we normally do, and when leaders are out on the floor, whether it’s executive leaders, mid management, whoever it is, we should continue work as as it was otherwise, and and whatever observations are made or questions are asked, it should never be a surprise. It should never be, never be punitive. This, actually, this raises a, you know, another point too. Because when you think about when you say the word audits, or, Yeah, ooh, I don’t like that word, yeah, negative feeling of like, okay, this is going to be punitive if I do something wrong, because I’m right, yes. Well, that should never be the case if, let’s just imagine that I am doing a standard work audit, or, you know, standard work observation, and someone does Step Five before step four, and they’re out of order. And, you know, I’m not going to write that person up. I’m not going to yell at that person. I’m going to ask questions, to seek to understand. And, you know, hey, I noticed that you, you know, you did this step before that step. Is there a reason why? Because normally, everybody’s coming to work and they want to do a good job. They’re they’re trying to do a good do good work. And right, if they did step five before step four, there’s probably a good reason, and I want to understand what that reason is, because if they found a better way to do things, or, Yes, you know, I’ve had examples where the if I followed the standard work, it was actually. Hurting my shoulders or, you know, so they do something a little bit differently. Well, I want to know that as a leader, so that I can fix it, improve that, train the team on the new way of doing things, so everyone can, can, you know, take part in that. So I don’t know, what are your thoughts on, like, checks or audits, being, like, punitive or feeling, well,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  15:16

yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna back up just a little bit, just give context. So my, my working knowledge of gamba, of just a lean and lean six segment of things that we talk about here all the time, you know, is basically most of it is couched in government work, sure. And so we, we made the decision to, when I say we, I mean those that are actually above me, not myself, made the decision to separate gembas and audits, you know, very distinctly, because what we didn’t want was managed by wandering around which, which is what can happen real easily when you don’t make sure that there’s a line between the gemba And the audit, and especially when you’re talking with there, there are certain places where audit is very people are very sensitive to audit. When you’re in state, when you’re in any kind of government, any kind of audit is typically, you know, a, you know, almost like a nail biting, at least a tense experience. We didn’t want that like you like what you described. You don’t want people that are afraid of things happening. You also don’t want them surprised by it. So we, we put this differentiation between again, but an audit, because one is to go and learn and the other is to go and verify. And we had our audits. We had our standard work audits. We had, you know, the process audits. We had those kind of things, sure, but those were more to verify, you know. So one is, one is based in curiosity, like you just talked about, hey, I noticed that you did step four before step five. Can you tell me more about that? You know, that’s about curiosity. The other is for confirmation, you know. And and I think when, when you get sophisticated in your gembas, and when you get used to being able to do this. I believe that you are able to, as you described it in training, you’re able to do again. But you go to where the work actually happens, and you do those, the you know, those checks and those standard work, you know, the Leader Standard Work, audits and those kind of things. You’re able to do that because you’re coming from a place of understanding that, hey, I’m not trying to trip you up. I’m not trying to catch you in on something, and I’m not trying to be punitive, but I am trying to understand where things are so that we can make work better for you. And I love that idea, you know, of just going with that open mind and curiosity and asking questions. And I want to, want to point out, and we don’t have a ton of time to do this, but your your experience, Patrick, is a lot in the manufacturing and going to the end. But what happens when you’re a knowledge worker? What happens when you’re in the finance you know, I’m not going to go and stand behind you and watch you. Know, process alone like, that’s just weird, right? But when so, so, when it comes more to knowledge work, I see the difference in that it GEMBA becomes actually a conversation and not an Not, not so much an observation. Because then what the way I would do a GEMBA with you if, as a knowledge worker, is to go and sit beside and say, Hey, walk me through everything you do and tell me. Tell me about what you’re doing while you’re doing it. Why did you have to go there? I noticed you did this. And I’m coming with that curiosity. So, so the that idea of curiosity, as opposed to wanting confirmation, is really huge in my mind. Yeah, and that’s, that’s the difference again, it’s, it’s more semantics than it is the principles. Because I think you have a fantastic handle on principles, as you’ve described, but, but I think, I think that’s huge. So this, this brings me to this next thing, because you said something that stirred my head a little bit that a GEMBA shouldn’t be a surprise. A GEMBA shouldn’t be, oh, shoot, Patrick’s coming. We got to clean this place up, you know? Because I think the default reaction to a GEMBA is suspicion, you know. Well, what is Patrick wanting? Like, what’s he checking on? Like, everybody, check, check you got your safety gear on, check you got this. Check you got that check you’re not. You don’t have any windows that are open that aren’t supposed to be, you know, anything like that. But how do we move it from suspicion to excitement? Because here was, here’s what I would love gimbals to be. And maybe you can, you can attest to that, that it can be reached. I just haven’t seen it yet where people are super excited, because it gives them an opportunity to be heard, right? Not, not to be checked on, not, you know, not, not to be you know, have something punitive, because what really is going to make or break the gemba. Culture is what happens after the gemba. If you come to my shop and do a GEMBA and 48 hours later, there’s a memo about how not to do things, I’m gonna go, oh, like, that’s all he’s doing. He’s just, he’s just double checking on us. I guess he’s just trying to micromanage us. Right? Needs to be done. But the difference is, if 48 hours later, after you left, there’s a memo that goes out about, hey, you guys may have been experiencing this, we have found that here’s a better way to do it, or something like that. You know, at least I know that, that I’ve been heard. So I’d love to hear your perspective on how you have seen the ability to shift from that suspicion to, if not excitement, at least seeing it as an opportunity to be heard, sure, not judged.

Patrick Adams  20:49

Yeah, I mean, you hit you touched on a couple things that that I’ll you use for to answer this, but you know, one of them is the fact that you know your experience with knowledge workers is is definitely much different in a GEMBA should be approached differently with someone in the office versus out in the manufacturing floor. And here’s, here’s the reason why I say that is, I think body language is a big deal. And I think, you know, when we’re creating a continuous improvement culture, psychological safety is, is, is important. And you mentioned, like, standing behind someone while they’re doing their work, right? So this might be a little thing, but I think, I think it is a big deal if, if I’m standing behind someone with my hands on my hips, and I’m like, you know, tell me. Show me how you do your work, you know. And, and, you know, okay, why’d you do it like that? And you know, that’s that’s a lot different than pulling a chair up next to them, looking them in the eyes, having a conversation. Hey, how you know, you guys kids had a soccer game lesson. How’d the soccer game go? You know? How’s everything going to the shop here? You know, what are you working on? Oh, yeah. Walk me through. Walk me through some of the stuff you’re doing. What are some of the things that bother you about the work that you’re doing right now? Oh, really, okay. And also, for me to write things down and then follow up on them, you know, bring a pad of paper, write things down, come back to that person and follow up, you know, because the worst thing that can happen is for them to tell you something that is bothering them, and you say you’re going to check on that or do something, and you write it down, and you never follow back up with them. How many times do you think that person is going to open up to you after that? Right? So even if you can’t solve the problem for them, maybe there’s a reason why it has to be done that way. You have to at least circle back with that person, follow up and let them know that you did the due diligence to, you know, check into this, and here’s what we were able to find, or here’s how we’re going to make this change in order to make your job easier. And that’s, that’s the other thing is, you know, actually making changes based on things that you hear. So if, you know, sometimes I go out into the shop floor and people are like, Yeah, you know, I’ve been saying this for years. Nobody ever does anything about it, you know. So that’s, that’s the difference is, are you taking action on these things, and are you actually doing something with it? Or at least, again, circling back to them, but also on the shop floor, my do I have my hands in my pockets, my hands on my hips? Am I, you know, not telling people why I’m there and just writing things, and I got a stopwatch in front of their face, but I’m not telling them why I’m there, you know, that’s a big deal. You got to let go. Have a conversation with them. Build trust. There’s no way that they’re going to open up about things if they have no idea why you’re there, who you are or what’s going on. They’re just scared. They’re worried, you know, and that’s not a way to approach any GEMBA. You have to build that trust, and that comes with good body language. It comes with writing things down, circling back, making the person feel at ease, letting them know why you’re there, chatting with them about things, even in asking them specifically, what are things about your job that bother you? And also, I’ll say this too. This isn’t GEMBA. Isn’t just about finding problems. It’s also about finding the the amazing, great things that your workers are doing, and telling them, hey, great job on this. Or, you know, you see someone that you know again, you know, is has done something well, or they hit their numbers, and, you know, hey, you know, great job yesterday on your numbers. I saw you. You know, you guys worked really hard, or you stayed late, or whatever it is, thank you for doing that, and having showing gratitude, saying thank you, and appreciating the great work that your team is doing. I think those are all things that can help to have a better, better time on the gamba.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  24:41

Yeah, to build that trust, and I’m going to add some of the things you mentioned before. You know, frequency, if you’re going once a quarter, then, then it’s just a routine check, and that’s all it is, you know. But if you have a good frequency, and, and I love, you know, you mentioned two things that I’m going to kind of combine. One is you had a notepad and not a check, not not a clipboard, because a clipboard means something completely different than a

Patrick Adams  25:06

notepad, yeah, or even a cell phone. Shane, I mean, you might be taking notes in your cell phone, but do they know that? What are you just texting that Exactly, right? Yeah, who’s who’s their boss? Yeah, don’t even bring your cell phone with you, leave that in the office.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  25:21

Yeah, I love that so frequency, and I want to, I want to couch it or phrase it this way, repeatedly, proving that it’s safe. Yeah, you know, if you continue to come to me, and I believe that I’m heard because of what I see afterwards, that that builds huge trust, and again, that that that being heard, not just observed, like I’m not a zoo animal. Don’t just come and and watch me work. Actually engage with me. Ask me questions, hear what, what is important to me, you know, as opposed to what’s important to the bottom line. But with this, the last thing that I will say about trust is something we talked about before, just kind of doing that callback, bringing it all back together, vulnerability and humility, you know, having having those two things, yeah, you know, all of those things, but having that as a leader is what’s going to build that trust and change. I feel you can correct me, leave us a comment, you know, in the show notes, you know, if you disagree, but I believe that can impact, I don’t know if change, but at least influence and impact the culture that you

Patrick Adams  26:27

have absolutely without a doubt. Yeah, I know you’re spot on, Shane, for sure. So Shane, as we kind of close here, if there’s someone listening in that is learning about GEMBA and GEMBA walks for the first time. And I’ll ask those of you that are listening to, you know, again, drop a comment below, whether this is on LinkedIn or YouTube, wherever you’re watching this at drop a drop a comment. And, you know, let us know what your thoughts are on this. But what are the first steps? What should somebody do if they’re gonna if they’re hearing this and they’re like, oh, this. This is, you know, this is something I should be doing regularly. What would you say is the first steps that they should follow?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  27:08

Oh, man. So I’m going to say to just pick one process in your organization that you think you understand. Well, you know something, you’re like, Hey, I got this. I know how it works. And then go and sit with a person that actually does that. And here’s, here’s the hardest part. Keep your mouth shut. Don’t, don’t say anything about how they’re doing their work. Feel free to ask questions, be curious, but don’t tell them how they’re supposed to do their work. Because remember, the fundamental thing about a GEMBA is what is actually happening versus what we think is happening. We want to know the reality. So going there sitting with someone who actually does the work, and have them ask them to walk you through everything they do, and I’m going to pull some of the things you just talked about that you mentioned. Ask them what they think about the process. Ask them how, how they have experienced it, how they live with it every day, what they like, what they don’t like, what they wish they could see differently about it, or, or

Patrick Adams  28:10

what they think if they if they identify something that bugs them, or a problem you know, what do you think we should do about that? You know? And ask them. Ask them what, would they do if, if they were solving this problem and and that be a great way to spark some, some conversation around a solution, you know, and maybe even, you know, getting into the root cause of why is this happening? But those, all of those, those curious questions are, what are going to lead to the best possible result for a good

Shayne Daughenbaugh  28:38

gamble, walk yes, curiosity, which you know, again, the humility, vulnerability. You know, you’re not going as the expert. You’re going to listen to the expert. That’s right. Watch, close your mouth and watch what comes out.

Patrick Adams  28:51

Yeah, yes, absolutely. I think that goes a long way for leaders. You don’t, you don’t have to be the expert out there. And I would even, I think you’re, you’re saying this Shane is like, don’t present yourself as you know, the the plant manager or the executive decision maker that you are. Present yourself as a, you know, just someone that’s out there who’s curious to know how things are working and why. That doesn’t take away from your credibility, and it really builds trust, and it actually will put you at a higher place with your with your team members who are going to find pride and joy in explaining the process to you and talking about some of the hang ups or problems and some of maybe the ideas that they have, and then seeing you follow through with that and come back to them and say, hey, thanks so much for pointing that out. Here’s what we’re going to do to try to, you know, solve that or remove that, you know, issue from from you. And that’s just going to, man, that’s going to take you so far. So I, yeah, I’m excited for everyone listening right now, learning about this for the first time, because it’s going to be a game

Shayne Daughenbaugh  29:58

changer for you. Yeah. That, and I’m just gonna, just to make sure that I add, I should have added it in there. You mentioned it before. Let people know that you’re coming. And why don’t you suddenly show up and go, Hey, I’m here for GEMBA, which they’re like, I don’t know what that is. Is that a sandwich? What are we doing here? I’m not sure, right? So let people know why you’re here, so that they don’t. You know, our minds are great, amazing things, especially when they’re trying to protect us. Yeah. So if suddenly Patrick comes in, throws a word I don’t understand, and he starts taking notes, my mind is going to roll to the worst so that I can protect myself.

Patrick Adams  30:33

Yeah, and you got to, you got to meet people where they are. I mean, you know, if GEMBA, you don’t have to use the word GEMBA, and you know you don’t have to use you know you can separate audits and you know checks separate that all of that is just fine. Meet Your people where they are. You know your people better than we do. It needs to be something that’s going to be productive and it’s going to lead to better results for you and for your team. So don’t be worried about whether you get it right or wrong. Just meet your team where they are, and just start doing something today. Don’t wait until next week. Don’t try to make it perfect. Yeah, and be consistent Exactly. Shane, that’s, that’s a good point. Schedule it. I schedule my gembas in my calendar, and I block time for them, and that’s on, you know, that’s for me to hold myself accountable, but maybe you, you know, find a buddy, or maybe you set a schedule with a few others to hold yourselves accountable, to be out there and doing this regularly. All of those things are important, but consistency is key. Don’t do two GEMBA walks in a week and then they never they don’t see you for another two months. That’s that’s not productive. It’s not going to do any good for you. So perfect. Well, this was, we covered a lot in a short amount of time here. Shane, it’s

Shayne Daughenbaugh  31:48

been there’s so much more we could. We would love to hear your thoughts. Throw them in the comments below. We’d love to engage with them, because, again, this conversation, this topic, is so much bigger than the time that we’ve allotted it. You know what works for you? What have you found? What is best? Especially, tell us what your industry is and how you have found gembas useful in your industry, because all those that are listening here might be able to learn from you as well. So thanks

Patrick Adams  32:14

so much. All right, see you. Shane, thank you.