Patrick Adams  00:00

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Lean Solutions podcast. My name is Patrick Adams, and I am joined today by our one of our amazing hosts, Shane Dolphinbow. Shane, how you doing?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:10

Easy, easy on the amazing part, but I am doing well, thank you, sir. Hey, it’s good to see you. I don’t get to see you very often. I know. I feel like it’s been

Patrick Adams  00:19

a while since we’ve been on the same episode together, so

Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:23

right. So this is great. This is great. Yeah. Yeah. How’s

Patrick Adams  00:26

how’s life been for you?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:28

It’s been very well. Yeah. Life life is good. Yeah. And and by the time this gets out, we will have had an amazing summit. I’m very excited about that as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Adams  00:38

And so we’ll see you next week. Yeah. But by the time this episode drops, it’s in the future. So everyone right now is hearing us in the past,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:47

right?

Patrick Adams  00:47

But we’re in the future, anyways. So we have we have a great guest today, and actually Olaf is a returning guest. He was on just over a year ago when when his last episode dropped and we talked about coaching for success during that episode, he’s one of those guests that we could probably have on every week and talk about a different topic with him. Yeah, exactly. Something different. Pretty well done, everything. So give us a give us an an intro here. Who who are we bringing to the stage, Shane?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  01:20

Exactly, exactly. All right, ladies and gentlemen. Let me introduce to you, if you haven’t met him yet, Olaf Butka. He spent 10 years at Procter and Gamble, then 17 years at Danaher before he joined Johnson Controls here in 2026. Now, while while he was at Procter and Gamble in Danaher, he was leading business there, but then he became a continuous improvement practitioner in innovation and commercial. Now, Olaf, welcome! Very happy to have you here. Can you briefly explain to this little brain here what you mean by becoming? I understand the continuous improvement part, but innovation and commercial. Now, continuous improvement in both of those sounds pretty fascinating. Can you give me just a quick summary of what that means and how that plays into today’s topic? Is a little bit about daily management leadership of daily management. So, what do you what do you got for me?

Olaf Boettger  02:15

Absolutely, thanks, Shane. Good to see you and good to see you, Patrick. Thanks for having me. A lot of people think you can only do continuous improvement in operations. So sometimes I get questions: What do you do in innovation? And then, like the question you ask, Shane: What’s commercial? Well, the commercial is often often the shortcut for sales, marketing, service folks.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  02:39

Yeah.

Olaf Boettger  02:40

So people who are selling who are dealing with the customer directly, and of course, from a continuous improvement point of view, they have problems as well. Target, actual gap, and you can ask the same questions: Where and why do we have a gap? What are we doing about the gap? So that’s what what continuous improvement looks like in commercial and then innovation will be product management, engineering, or R&D talking about new products. How do you get new products to market? How do you sell new products in the market? So that’s what I’m dealing with every week.

Patrick Adams  03:15

Olaf, yeah, I, I, I have to imagine that there are people listening right now who are like, wait a minute, you know, I’m in sales. Don’t bring that CI stuff my way, or don’t, you know, I don’t. I I work in product development. Why are we talking about lean or continuous improvement? So I I really want to I want to park on this just for a minute because I think it’s super important. As you know, obviously, it’s really easy for organizations to adopt lean initiatives in their manufacturing operations and manufacturing industry. It’s very easy if you’re, especially if you’re building multiple widgets an hour, and you know you’re passing them through multiple processes before they get shipped out the door. Very easy to understand how lean can apply, especially with all of the the research and tools and information that’s out there. But when it comes to the commercial side of things, when it comes to sales, even transactional in the office finance, you know things like that, it can be a little bit more Difficult to realize the benefits, I guess, or to implement continuous improvement and develop, you know, that culture inside more of an administrative process, or you know, outside of manufacturing. What does that look like for you? Like, what’s been your experience? Has it been difficult to get people to adopt lean into you know operations or sorry the transactional side of things.

Olaf Boettger  04:47

Yeah, thanks, Patrick. It’s it’s a very good question because if you apply lean by the book, right? The sort of in German we have this saying some people are more Catholic than the Pope, right? If. Apply lean that way, then it might be difficult. But if you apply the principles of lean, if you take any transactional process, there’s probably quality element, there’s probably delivery element, there’s probably an inventory weighting element, and there’s probably a cost element, right? So very similar. You have things which repeat. You have your metrics. You can do visual management. So that’s for transactional. For commercial, so sales, for example, or innovation, what we often do is we look at growth, we look at revenue, or orders, and I always joke with my sales colleagues: as long as you make your numbers, we’ll stay away. The problem starts, the visual problem, when there’s gaps, when there’s gaps in an organization not growing as fast as as they aspire to, and and that typically is either on the sales side, so existing equipment or existing service, existing software, or new stuff, innovation, right? And that’s where where most of my work is in looking at how much are we growing, how much are we growing versus target, and then identify those areas where we’re red, where the actual is less than the target, and then again the same questions like like the ones you would ask for any problem, right? What’s what’s the gap between the target and the actual? When? Why do you have a gap? What are we doing against it? And when when will we get green again? So the moment you have your maybe different metrics or different ways of getting the metrics straight. You can do problem solving one on one again, at least from my point of view.

Patrick Adams  06:51

Yeah, and that’s that’s a that’s a great great point. I love love that because and and I like that you started out by explaining the kind of the definition of a problem. You know where we want to be and where we are today, and the gap between the two. Because when you think about it like that, it’s like every every part of the business has problems. And so, if you have problems, then there’s room for continuous improvement, right?

Olaf Boettger  07:14

Yeah. Today’s

Patrick Adams  07:15

topic, we’re going to be talking about leadership and specifically in daily management, what what would you say? Like, if you were to to take me, obviously, you’ve worked for a number of companies that I would say have a really great lean culture, a really great culture of continuous improvement. In one of those companies that’s further along on their lean journey, if you were to take me to let’s say a sales team member or a product engineer. Choose one story and walk me through what daily management in a CI in a culture with a company that has a culture of continuous improvement in on the sales side, and then also walk me through what it might look like in operations for daily management. Give me like two stories and kind of walk me through not not philosophy but actual behaviors, the things that you would see happening with those two individuals. You know, in one of those companies.

Olaf Boettger  08:17

Yeah, I I take one sales meeting where we, on a quarterly basis, looked at how the the sales engine worked, right? The sales process overall, and there were a number of areas highlighted which we typically look at, call it like an audit, if you like, or call it like a checklist of what what would need to work, 80% were green, 10% were yellow, and 10% were red. Now, where was 80% of the meeting spent on the green items? Right. So we spent 80% on the green items. We spent eight minutes or eight 15% on the yellow, and then we said we don’t have time for the red. Right, that’s a a wonderful story of an organization at lower continuous improvement majority or maturity because it from a lean point of view, a continuous improvement point of view. We don’t like to talk about the green much because it’s watered down the bridge, and we would like to focus on red as the opportunities. Right? In in in Danaher, there was this idea, this joke of the Danaher clap for the stuff you’ve done well. Right? Shane, thank you. That was a Danner clap for you. Now let’s move on to the red and the opportunity. So maybe an overdoing way of focusing on the red. But what that organization did, what that team did, was exactly the opposite. It was all green, right? Or most of it was green. I often call that the watermelon. It’s very green. From the outside, and once you cut and look inside, it’s deeply red, right? So that’s one issue, if you like, a specific different area from project management, which has an operations element and also product engineering element. I was in a meeting late last week, where the the target date for this specific action was the second of September, September the second, and we were past that, and the status was green and in progress. So I checked whether the team would pick up on that because in those project meeting updates, again, we would like to look at the red, but they didn’t. So I asked them to look specifically at that element and tell me what they thought the status was. And then we got into a lot of massaging, and you know, well, it’s kind of red, but it’s not really red. It’s kind of a yellowish green. And I, I just asked the team, look, if we’re not even honest in recognizing that this is red because it’s past the due date, how are we going to improve? So those are two typical examples from from daily management, and they go a bit into this courage of calling the red the red because it starts with intellectual honesty, and I know there are several organizations around. I’ve worked in some parts of organizations which don’t like red, and they certainly don’t like red when senior management comes to town. Right? Oh, when Patrick comes, we just call it all green because A, he isn’t really interested, and B, he doesn’t really get what’s going on in the business. So think about that sort of philosophy in that meeting. That one half of the team is hiding the the opportunities, and then senior management is kind of drilling in, or it’s just superficial lean. So those are a few examples from the behaviors, the the real behaviors I do see in my day to day work.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  12:01

So you mentioned that it takes. Oh, go ahead, Shane. Let me let

Patrick Adams  12:05

me. I got one follow-up real quick. Sorry, before you go. Um, I you had mentioned that the example of the team that um was uh didn’t key in on the the due date being passed, but they called it green. Um, what? Why do you think that? Like, what what creates that type of behavior? Like why do people why why do leaders not key in on that? It seems like that would be a very easy question to ask. Like hey, we’re past due, but you’re you said we’re green. That’s so what what what reasons do you think people don’t key in on that.

Olaf Boettger  12:42

Yeah, no, it’s that’s a that’s a good question. It’s it’s usually one of two. It’s either fear, if the last person who did it last week is no longer here or has his head cut off. That’s empirical data, and and in one organization we literally traced it back to an event four years ago, where a senior leader, the CEO back in those days, misbehaved, and since then people knew he doesn’t deserve the truth, right? So that’s the fear-based. What’s the the expectation, the culture? Well, we really expect Shane to come with Green, otherwise he’s not a good team member. Good team members deliver green, right? So, if you have either these expectations or the fear, what happens if I speak the truth or both? Then you get cultures which avoid the red, and and and I, with my experience, I see this very quickly. And if you have a culture which is tuned to green, it’s very very difficult to make continuous improvement work because you need to undo this culture first. If we are not intellectually honest speaking about the red, we’ll just be doing theater.

Speaker 1  13:56

Yeah.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  13:57

Right. Now you mentioned that it takes courage to to speak to the red now, and not speaking to it. I love how you just set that up. Not speaking to it because of fear or past experience. You know, we just want the green to shine. What’s so going through that way and covering up the red? What are some of the actual things you have seen happen because the lack of courage to speak to the red, like what? What are some of the impacts? We we understand the impacts of you just covered up, and you know Patrick sees it. Okay, thanks, good job, guys, and moves on. But for the business, what happens when we do that?

Olaf Boettger  14:36

I mean, there’s this this wonderful example of Alan Mullaly when he took over Ford, right? He introduced his daily management system, which for for us here in the call is is daily management, right? Visual management, red, green. It was all green, and up to a certain point, where Alan said, “Look, guys, we’re about to lose $17 billion this year.” And you’re telling me it’s all green? What’s going on? So you you you might run into one of the biggest losses ever without realizing it. So that was Ford. Larry Kulp has shared something very similar when he took over GE, right? Something really destined for bankruptcy, but it was all green. And then I was involved in my PNG days in a Gillette acquisition. Jim Kilts, who took over Gillette, who ran Gillette as a CEO before got acquired by P&G, said the same. Right, Gillette was missing earnings for 17 quarters in a row, and 80% of people were exceeds expectations. You you you’re flying blind if you’re doing stuff without any connection to reality, and that’s why going to Gemba is so important. That’s why this idea of being able to pull the end on is so important because otherwise, literally, it’s all theater. I’m showing you something, and I hope you don’t get it. And then you’re trying to get to the truth. You’re flying blind with you’re flying a plane with everything you know everything shut, the window shut, and every all the instruments switched off. That’s dangerous, if you ask me.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  16:18

Now now that also made me think helping manage or not manage, but helping coach teams do daily management. When I was working for the state, I would come in and find they had weeks and weeks and weeks of green, and it was in in doing a little bit of data in the research because we’d also have data with that. So the visual management wasn’t just green, but it was here’s the data of it. Okay, great, but what that is telling me also is, if it’s all just green, then you probably need to adjust what you’re trying to measure, because if we’re only trying to measure that which is just makes us look good, then that there’s no innovation there, there’s no growth there, there’s there’s no there’s no improvement on green. Let’s find that which isn’t working as well, which isn’t the green, and that was the part that was hard to communicate and to coach was because no one wants a their visual management to look like it’s not working, you know, or or that that the tasks that that are being tracked aren’t doing well. So so to have that that’s the other side of always having green, whether you’re trying to hide the red, or you’re just managing things that make you look good, then that’s just as much theater, I I believe, as what you’re talking about when you’re hiding

Olaf Boettger  17:29

it. Absolutely, we I like to call them CYA metrics, right? Cover your eyes metrics.

Patrick Adams  17:35

Right, I like it. Okay, I got a couple questions. First one is, if if anyone is listening that’s in a place where there the culture is one of watermelon metrics and CY CYA metrics, is is is there any light at the end of the tunnel? Is there a way out? Can they create a culture of continuous improvement? And what, if yes, what does that look like? How long is it going to take? What kind of effort do they need to put in? What What are your thoughts on that?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  18:12

And can we couch this in the daily management? Like, let’s just make sure we we remain in. Yeah, yeah. What behaviors are

Patrick Adams  18:18

necessary from leaders at all levels, in order to make the shift.

Olaf Boettger  18:23

Yeah, I give you another German saying, and I think you have something in in English as well. The fish stings from the head, so if if the leader if the leader doesn’t display that behavior, it’s very difficult to make continuous improvement work, and it’s really that how you react when you get bad news. Because I shared this example of the CEO reacting in a bad way, and people learn very very quickly. And and and again, it was Larry Kulp who said, “Well, if you shoot the messenger, this is not going to take off. This type of culture. So I think what everybody can do, especially if you have people reporting to you, if you’re in a leadership position, is to check your own behavior. If you do get bad news in daily management, are you thanking the people who bring up the good news, like in a good Andon call? Right. If somebody calls the Andon call in Toyota, the team leader comes and says thank you for pulling, so that’s the first step. And then what you have the curiosity of finding out what what the issue is, and then trying to help. We had a case in the last two weeks where the team was physically afraid of making a point because they were behind, and it was beyond their control. So I helped them escalate it, and I helped them to get the help they deserved. So that obviously helped to reinforce the culture that we the escalation was not something bad; it was something good to get them the help they deserve. So that’s another type of. Hey, if we help them and show that escalation and and sharing the bad news in an honest way actually helps us all to do a better job, then you get a few kind of counterexample of that. It might be a good idea to raise the red and to speak the truth. That’s that’s kind of moving it in the right direction. But again, the higher we are, especially if we’re CEOs, we need to lead. We can’t expect honesty from the organization and then just, you know, cut off the first head who speaks the truth.

Patrick Adams  20:33

Yeah, right. Well, and I have to imagine that that that takes a certain level of humility for a leader that has you know worked very hard to get to where they are in the company, and they have a title that’s been assigned to them, and now they’re being asked to listen and think and do these things that you know maybe seem. I love that you said that they that they get the support that they deserve. The frontline leaders or the managers-they’re getting the support that they deserve. You said that, and I think that’s a really important point. And I hate to-I’m not saying that. I’m not trying to say that listening or you know learning or these things are under an executive leader because they’re definitely not. But does take a certain level of humility to go attend a stand-up meeting, a huddle, and listen and respond appropriately versus stepping. I’ve actually been at a stand-up huddle where the the executive leader did not attend them regularly, and when they were there, they they stepped into the middle of the circle and literally literally started to point fingers and raised his voice and was you know directing and definitely like out of place for what was supposed to be happening at this daily huddle and so my question to you is what should it look like for a team to get what they to get the support that they deserve in the form of an executive leader or a leader in general, just attending a huddle and listening? Like, what should that look like for them to do that?

Olaf Boettger  22:15

Yeah, I think Patrick, you named it very well. It’s about listening, right? More listening than speaking. It’s about role modeling, especially if you’re a leader. As as Shane kindly introduced at the beginning, I worked for Procter and Gamble for 10 years. We had a CEO, Ajig Leftley, who didn’t call it going to Gamba. He called it the consumer’s boss. He went to consumers’ homes. He went into the favelas in Rio de Janeiro to see low-income customers. The security guys were getting mad, but he said, “I want to see how these people live. I want to learn. Right? We probably call this going to Gemba. It requires curiosity and it requires the humility to shut up and learn. If I’m in a huddle and or if I’m at Gemba, why would I go there if I don’t want to learn? And I think that mindset really makes the difference. And I’ve had people. I remember one senior leader who shall remain nameless here, who said, “Look, I’ve been in this business for 25 years. I don’t think this CI crap can teach me anything new. Thank you for being honest. The leader is no longer with the company for a reason. If that’s your impression, then don’t do continuous improvement, please. Don’t go into the huddle meetings. Don’t go to Gemba because you’re pissing everybody off. Excuse my French, but that’s the point, right? It’s a choice. Do I want to learn or not? And my personal choice is, I can go to any huddle meeting, I can go to any Gemba meeting in operations, in commercial, in innovation. I learn something every day, because I’m not arrogant enough to say I know it all. I don’t, especially now, in after six months in a new company. I’ve got years to learn. There are people who have been working there for 45 years in John’s controls. Do I want to tell them something? Probably not. They should tell me something. I need to learn from them, and and I I think that’s what we can learn from the Toyotas of this world. If I’m not helping the operator, if I’m not serving the operator, then what am I doing?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  24:27

Yes, there it is, right there. That’s that’s exactly where where my head was going with all of this. We’ve so far we’ve talked about courage, we’ve talked about humility, but and and I, Patrick, you kind of alluded to this. The leader’s job is to support those that are under, not to look good to those that are above them. Like, I mean, I’m making a blanket statement that probably isn’t true everywhere, but when we’re talking about CI, especially in you know trying to do daily management and help help teams with that, like my job. Coming in as a leader is to to be curious and understand what can I do to support you guys. Not you guys are not making me look good, and Patrick above me is going to be reaming me here in 30 minutes. You know, let’s let’s figure this out like you, you and you. Like that. That’s not how to go about you know true coaching and daily management that you’re talking about with you know courage and humility and and I’m sure there there are some others as well but I I love how how you couch that into what can I do what do you guys need to do the job you know that we need to do if we’re trying to accomplish this many production level and we’re down here in the red what do you need tell me more about it so that I can help you get to the green, not berate you to get you know that that’s not motivating to chew your butt, you know until you reach green. I don’t, but but I’m not I’m not in leadership, so I I don’t know what I’m talking about. You do know what you’re talking

Olaf Boettger  26:00

about, and I think that’s where we we often see this management by hero, right? And that’s the exact opposite of what it should be. It’s about delivering results and developing people. It’s not showing about how great somebody is, which brings us right back to humility and and sort of keeping the ego in check. It’s not about me when I go to daily management, it’s about helping the team to do a better job. Yeah,

Patrick Adams  26:27

yeah, yeah. And and one of the things I think when we talk about daily management, I think one of the things that maybe we don’t harp on enough is the the importance of consistency and discipline to ensure that whatever, whatever you know, from a leader standard work perspective, whatever items that we’ve deemed our non-negotiable behaviors that should be supporting good daily management. Sometimes you know those things when when we things start to get busy, the customer shows up for a visit. So and so calls in sick. You know the whatever we got quality issues, past due work happening. A lot of times it’s those those daily the the cadence of those what I consider non negotiables. Those are the things that start to fall off and become not as important anymore, and I think that a lot of times when that happens, daily management starts to fall apart. And so my question is, what what would be to you? What would be some of those daily habits that you think are non-negotiable for leaders when it comes to supporting daily management? What are the things that leaders should be doing on a daily or a weekly basis that are more important than anything else that they could possibly be doing to help support their team?

Olaf Boettger  27:50

Yeah, maybe Patrick, let’s let’s start from the mindset. Right, there are people who think they need to do they they need to do continuous improvement on a Friday afternoon when they have extra time, those are the people where it falls off the list the quickest, right? And there are people who say, “Well, this is how I manage the business. Getting that mindset right is is is an early indicator for me whether we’ll have problems or not. Where the number of people being acquired by Danner who said, “I’ve done the lean training. I’m good. I don’t need to do this stuff anymore. You’ll actually be using this every day because the the daily management is about lean, the monthly operating reviews about lean, the strategic planning is about lean, the problem solving is about lean. So if you think that you’ve done the training, like the once in a year compliance training, and then I don’t need to worry about this anymore, so that that that’s the mindset, right? When when we go into the practices, I I think it starts with with three things for me to keep it very simple. A is to have an action plan about what you’re trying to do, or standard work, depending on on on where you are. Number two is to check what what some people call visual management, what others call daily management. So on a regular cadence, as you said, daily or hourly in operations, weekly in sales, monthly maybe for when I run a large company or when we do innovation to check. Okay, on on the KPIs, what’s my target? What’s my actual? Do I have a gap? Yes or no? And if I do have a gap, what are the priorities of the gaps I have? And then the third element to do the problem solving. Okay, for those gaps, do I know how to close the gap? If so, who does what by when? If I don’t know how to close the gap because it’s sort of a weird thing and it’s coming up and again and again, and we tried to firefight it yesterday, but it didn’t quite work. Then going into a deeper form of problems. Whether you call this A three, whether you call that Krebner Tago, or any other things, there are different ways of doing that. But I think those three elements: having an action plan or standard work, visual management or daily management, and then having some form of problem solving, is what I look for, and then it’s a bit like going to the gym. You cannot delegate it. You need to do it at regular intervals. Just the intention isn’t enough, and you have to do it again and again to make it work. Same with continuous improvement in in those three practices. So that’s how I would start.

Patrick Adams  30:41

I like it. That’s a very practical few steps that anyone at any level of an organization can take. So thank you for sharing that. I think that’s

Shayne Daughenbaugh  30:50

super important.

Olaf Boettger  30:51

Maybe if if I can just add, Patrick, that maybe in the continuous improvement community we sometimes make this too complex. We sometimes make this too academic. We sometimes make this too complex in terms of all the tools. I don’t need to use many tools for that. I I can do this with stickies, and and I can do this with red or green. So I I usually try to do this kindergarten simple because we have enough complexity in our lives. So let’s make sure. And I know there are a lot of CI people in the audience listening to that. Let’s keep it simple for our business partners, because often they want to do a good job, but if we tell them you need to learn 258 slides first, and you need to learn this tool and that tool, and then you need to listen to 15 podcasts from Shane and Patrick, people just get overloaded. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, you lost us at listening to Shane and Patrick.

Patrick Adams  31:46

It just made me actually think about a client that I am currently working with, but they they had a value stream leader who brought in a really nice value stream board layout, and they were trying to kind of align on on an agreed upon layout for all of the value streams, and I felt like his board was the right board. It had all the right stuff on it, and the problem that we found right away was it was a little bit too complex for what they were ready for at the time, and so they had to back off a little bit and go. This is the end goal, but we’re going to start with just one of the you know five KPIs, and we’re only going to get this one column done right for you know first. Keep it very simple, and and only focus on this one area of the board, so even from that aspect, I think that that’s just a great callout. Is just keep it as simple as you can, learn it in in the simplest fashion, and then start to replicate. You know, as you’ve worked out all the bugs and and kind of learned along the way. So even even you know, I mean, all of us are learning continuously and and looking for opportunities to to get better, but I love that you you said that you know keep it simple. It’s it’s the the best way to start for sure, no matter where you are. So

Olaf Boettger  33:13

yeah, thank you. Love

Shayne Daughenbaugh  33:15

it. Agreed.

Patrick Adams  33:16

And we’re we’re we’re out of time here. We’re just happening. I know, I know. Like I said at the beginning, we Olaf has so much to offer. There’s so many other things we could talk about. We’ll just we’ll we we should wait maybe not a year this time though to have you back on bring you on sooner.

Olaf Boettger  33:35

Thank you. Talk about some of

Patrick Adams  33:36

the the other things that are happening on your side of the world. But we really appreciate you coming and sharing, you know, with with our listeners on the topic of leading and in and specifically around daily management. So much to learn from you, and we we so much appreciate it, Olaf. If if anybody wants to reach out to you, what’s the best way for them to connect with you if they have further questions?

Olaf Boettger  33:59

Probably LinkedIn. I’m pretty active on LinkedIn, so feel free to comment or send me a direct message, and that helps. And maybe if I can, Shane and Patrick, thank you for the service to the CI community with the podcast, and then also on LinkedIn as well. I’m always learning from these discussions from your podcast, so thank you. Appreciate that.

Patrick Adams  34:22

Oh, appreciate that very much. Yeah, we’re we’re a great. I think this is a great community. All of us together, helping each other out, and and just really helping to promote, you know, CI into organizations, and that we all know the value that it can bring and the the the real results that it creates, and so I think the more we can help each other, the better. So, yeah, I appreciate that. Well, have a have an amazing day, and and we’ll chat with you in less than 12 months. We’re going to have you back on and and share some other good points with our listeners. So, thanks again for being on the show.