Patrick Adams  00:32

Hello, and welcome to this episode of the lean solutions podcast led by your hosts, Shane Daughenbaugh and myself, Patrick Adams. How’s it going? Shane?

 

Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:42

Sir, thank you very much.

 

Patrick Adams  00:43

Yeah, absolutely. Hey, Shane. So today’s episode, the topic is lean sucks, if you’re not doing it, right, so I’m excited to have this conversation. But you actually did a word on the feed, right? You went out to LinkedIn, you’ve solicited some thoughts or ideas from our, some of our followers. And so I just wanted to kind of hear how that went, how’d it go?

 

Shayne Daughenbaugh  01:08

It was good. It was good. I have some some great things. Some of them are pretty obvious. Some of them may not be. You know, let me just read you some of the things I’m just gonna read. Some of the highlights are some great points out there. But lean sucks when it’s only cost cutting exercise is focused on lowering expenses. And then I love this Lean is not an acronym that stands for less employees are needed. It’s all right. Sleep sucks without understanding the underlying philosophy or theory. And and I’m hoping we’re going to be able to touch on some of these, you know, as we’re going in, lean sucks when the organization’s misuse it as a weapon to overburden their workforce under the guise of efficiency. Totally get that one. Like that one. Yeah. Sounds good. When lien sucks when it’s not followed with action, or when it’s deployed as more of a hobby or a shiny new thing, instead of having an established network of champions, and a clear owner of the process. Lean sucks, where there is not enough people to reinforce the methods. Another one yeah, getting more people involved. And then I’ll just leave, I’ll end it here with this one. Lead sucks when leaders come up with any new technique without ensuring that the entire workforce on the floor is on board with his new way of working.

 

Patrick Adams  02:29

Yeah, some, some good ones. Love it. Good stuff. Well, yeah. So today, we’re going to talk a little bit more in depth about this, this topic of Lean sucks. When it’s not done, right, obviously, most of us that are listening here, and you know us here on the on the call, we know that Lean is a transformative approach. However, there there is many organizations and many people in organizations that have a bad taste in their mouth, you know, when implementation goes awry. You know, lean isn’t always looked at as being positive. And there’s very specific reasons around that, which some of them you just mentioned. So I’m excited to kind of dig into this a little bit with with our guest, Maria Mastriani. And so I want to let me kind of hand it back over to you Shane, and let you introduce Maria and talk a little bit about her background, and then I’m looking forward to diving into this subject with her.

 

Shayne Daughenbaugh  03:28

It’s an impressive background, but he is a seasoned process improvement expert, with 22 years of experience as an Air Force officer in aviation maintenance. She stabilized her specializes in enhanced operational performance and profitability across various EU industries. Her expertise include designing and leading training programs in Lean Six Sigma and Lean management, and her extensive background spans line in heavy maintenance, quality inspection, aircraft maintenance, resource management, and quality audits. As a chief aircraft engineer, she has improved and supersize supervised aircraft maintenance processes, contributing to published scientific journals. And additionally, wait wait, there’s more additionally, holds a BA in aeronautical engineers, a master’s in science in advanced industrial and manufacturing systems, focusing on reliability analysis and TQM for jet fighter maintenance operations. She’s also a certified systemic analyst analysts. That’s a mouthful, Maria, we are very excited to have you here. Joining us this this day, so thank you so much for coming for coming.

 

Maria Makrygianni  04:42

Good evening, saying Good evening, Patrick, from Europe, from Europe. It’s my pleasure to be here with you today. You’re always inspiring with your podcasts and I hope that today we also have a very insightful conversation together.

 

Shayne Daughenbaugh  05:00

Thank you. We weren’t to it. Yeah, I think I think we will. Yeah. So let’s, let’s jump off here with this question. This is, it’s interesting because you’re coming from a military working environment. And that’s a little bit different and unusual from the working place that that we’re, we’re Patrick and I are coming from but also from those who who typically listen to the podcast, can you please tell us some of the basic characteristics of your working environment that would stand out if applied to civilian companies, like what can also be useful from from your experience,

 

05:33

of course, I’m very proud of being a military officer in the Air Force for about 22 years now. This working place is a great school for me because I have been told and fully assimilated core values that helped me a lot in everything else I do in my life. When you hear about military, your first thoughts go to discipline. So from my 80s, when I started to study at the Air Force Academy, the first value that I learned was of course discipline, military personnel, are trained to adhere to strict standards of discipline and professionalism. This mindset emphasizes punctuality, attention to detail, and adherence to procedures, all of which can contribute to a culture of reliability and excellence in civilian organizations. Also, another thing that I have been told, is leadership. military leaders are told to lead by example, inspire confidence and make tough decisions under pressure. These leadership qualities including integrity, resilience, and accountability, are highly valued in companies and can foster a culture of trust and respect among team members. In the airforce, everything we do, we’re always mission focused, and Airforce operates with a clear mission and objectives. And every action is oriented towards achieving those goals. This mission focused mindset can also help civilian companies stay aligned with their strategic objectives. prioritize tasks effectively, and maintain a sense of purpose and direction. I don’t know if you have seen the film Top Gun with Tom Cruise. Do you know this film same Patrick Todd? Yeah, with Tom Cruise. Apart from beautiful actors and actresses and powerful fighter aircraft. This filmer presents What we really do when we have to participate in a mission. From the beginning to the end of the mission, we learn to be always together, developing teamwork, and collaboration. Military Operations rely heavily on teamwork and collaboration among diverse teams and units. We don’t care only about our individual success, but also want our colleagues to succeed and survive. Civilians can benefit from adopting a similar collaborative approach, breaking down silos and fostering a cross functional team work to achieve common goals and solve complex problems. We taught to be adaptable and resilient. military personnel are trained to adapt quickly to changing circumstances and overcome adversity. This adaptability and resilience are essential qualities in fast paced and unpredictable civilian environments. Enabling companies to respond effectively to challenges and seize opportunities for growth. Will give also attention to detail military training emphasizes the importance of attention to detail in planning, execution and evaluation of tasks. This meticulous approach can help organizations improve quality, reduce errors, and enhance customer satisfaction by ensuring that every aspect of the product or services meets high standards of excellence. We mitigate in real life the risk developing contingency plans and mitigating threats to achieve mission success. Civilians can benefit from a plank similar risk management principles to the business operations, identifying potential risks and implementing measures to minimize the impact on performance and profitability. And to end with because I speak so much we have developed training and continuous improvement spirit. The military invests heavily in training and development to ensure that personnel We are prepared to handle a wide range of tasks and challenges. Similarly, companies can enhance employee skills and capabilities through ongoing training programs, mentorship and opportunities for professional growth. And, of course, all of the above or down under extremely increased time pressure, but always keeping in mind our major priority to keep safety and quality at high levels. And this, of course, is a challenge for us. And it’s not always easy.

 

Patrick Adams  10:35

Yeah, yeah, I hear everything that you said was just resonating with me, because, obviously, you know that I spent eight years in the military here in the US. And so everything that you just talked about, you know, I experienced in the military, and, you know, a lot of it when I was in, in the Marine Corps wasn’t necessarily called Lean or process improvement. But, you know, you talked about a lot of the enablers to a good culture of continuous improvement, which are learned in the military, you know, discipline being one of them. And it just made me think about, as you’re talking through how some of those things can translate, you know, from the military to the civilian world, it’s not easy, right? It’s, it’s not, it’s easy to talk about and say, oh, yeah, just, you know, here’s what we do in the military, just do that there, and it will work. And it’s not always that case, for the reason that you said, just talking about discipline specifically, if you know, in a civilian company, they may not have the same level of discipline that you know, you have in the military. And that’s why I always love when I get to companies where they have, you know, a few military members who have been, who are in the leadership team, or or, you know, embedded there somewhere, because you do start to see some of that come out. But I guess my question for you is, how do you turn? How do you how do civilian companies achieve or adopt some of those similar tendencies that are taught in the military? Like, how do we, how do we turn that into tangible actions that a civilian company could do, and adopt into their organization so that they can have some of those similar results that you’re having in the Air Force?

 

12:23

It’s a good question, Patrick. It’s not easy. I know that it’s not easy to be disciplined. But when you you’re you are missing focused. It’s another thing that I believe that lacks from companies is missing, focusing. I don’t know if they, they have a clear vision for what they want to do in their working life. So we designed the mission, the first thing is to design the mission. And when we have a clear, when we have clear thoughts of what we want to do, you know, that you have to be disciplined in order to, to gain to to read the Mason to read to the goal, and to survive from this mission. Because our death effect. It’s not a definite product, our defect is it’s our life.

 

Patrick Adams  13:31

Sure. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. And that, you know, kind of leads into the next question, right, because you had mentioned that, you know, one of the that, that long term goal, or that, you know, what we would call the true north, for the Air Force, you talked about safety and better quality, right, those are kind of two of the areas that you’re trying to always working towards, you know, in improved, having noticed zero to no safety incidents and having better quality results. So, you know, what, to, from a lean perspective, you know, how has lean helped the Air Force successfully implement MIT are successfully achieved their mission of reducing safety and quality in what they do. How does it tie together? Yeah,

 

14:24

okay. I think that this question, it’s not only your question, it’s the question from the majority of people that are listening to this podcast. I work I work as a Lean Six Sigma trainer in companies also. And when I tell them that I am an officer in Air Force, they are wondering, what could they know officer tell about lean to us. We’re a manufacturing company, or an insurance company for example. As I said before, one of our real enemies is time. We must do our job under time pressure. decisions. But keeping in mind that Safety and Quality is our first priority. Lean philosophy provides insightful principles and tools that help a special working environment like mine, to enhance efficiency, effectiveness and readiness. When I started working in the Air Force, I was only 18 years old, then nobody told me that in the Air Force, we have implemented lean, but I’ve started working based on Lean principles, I learned to think how to become better day by day, how to organize and standardize what we do, how to minimize the time in what we do, because of it most of the time. For us improvement is a matter of life, or death, as I said before, to produce a defectively or to produce late in my workplace means that someone could possibly be killed. After many years, I learned through the continuous studies I did that most of the things that I do every day in my working environment comes from Lynn, for example. Basic lean concept is streamlining processes. military organizations identify and eliminate waste in their processes to optimize resource utilization and reduce inefficiencies. This involves streamlining logistics supply chain management, and that means straight to procedures to ensure that resources are allocated effectively, and missions are executed efficiently. We embrace a culture of continuous improvement that enables military units to adapt to evolving threats, technology and operational environments. By encouraging soldiers and leaders to identify opportunities for innovation and efficiency gains. military organizations can change their readiness and effectiveness over time. Everything we do also comes from standardized procedures and protocols. So another lean tool that we use is standardization, and can also enhance safety and reduce the risk of errors during complex operations. We have also adopted the just in time approach that enables military organizations to minimize inventory costs, reduce waste and then gain Civility by closely monitoring demand side yard center rapidly deploying resources as needed. Military units can maintain readiness while minimizing excess inventory and logistical overhead. We use visual management tools such as status boards, performance metrics, and situational awareness displays that enable military leaders to monitor and manage operations effectively. By providing real time visibility into key metrics and performance indicators. Visual Management Tools facilitate rapid decision making, and coordination across distributed military units. Total productive maintenance the well known TPM is another Lean tools that is widely used in the airforce maintaining equipment reliability, and availability for keeping air force readiness at the highest level. And, of course, we have developed a data driven decision making system. Data Analytics and Intelligence enables military leaders to make informed decisions based on real time information and analysis. By collecting, analyzing and disseminating actionable intelligence, military organizations can enhance situational awareness, anticipate threats and optimize resources allocation in support of mission objectives, of course, and these are the common tools that we use from lean in order to make our working life better and better every day. Sure, right. Right.

 

Shayne Daughenbaugh  19:13

I love how you, you started with hay when I when I was eight started this 18 years ago, no one called this lien. But everything you just mentioned, you know, if I, if I were to pull some of these books off behind me for myself, I would find those exact things you just haven’t the way you are able to just say hey, you know, let’s look at this. You know, what’s the principle behind this? The principle is standardization. This is how we do it. You know, this is the Lean principle of it, you’re able to just make those connections from the real world, you know, into that the philosophy of lien. You also mentioned that you’re a lien trainer for civilian companies. You know, and as as we were talking here before we started recording about the opportunity you have Who? How do you say lay your stone on on the path that people have toward lean? Where you can see, you know, different ways that Lean principles are adopted by the companies. From your experience? why do companies fail to take advantage of the benefits offered by adopting these philosophies and the things you just all those great things you just mentioned?

 

20:22

Yeah. Okay. So, I have been invited by companies to train them on lean philosophy. And they tell me that they have started implementing Lean, but they find this journey a little bit difficult. And, of course, there are several reasons why companies might fail to fully embrace and take advantage of the benefits offered by adopting the Lean philosophy. As a military officer, I will start with lack of discipline, of course. What can we say before with Patrick also, companies have goals or habits they want to achieve, but lack that discipline needed to stick with it. And that leads to more failure because they are forming a mindset that they don’t have the necessary discipline. People also resistant implementing Lean principles often require significant changes to existing processes, workflows, and organizational culture. Lean requires abandoning the old way of thinking, you have to think differently. Some employees and managers may resist these changes due to fear of the unknown, and willingness to let go familiar ways of working core concepts about leaving their safe zone. Most of the time people want to change but without leaving behind anything they have been doing so far. And this is not possibly saints in days above or the abandonment of old and familiar habits. And that scares them a lot. Sometimes, yeah. Do you want to add something Patrick Purvis was just gonna say these types of things?

 

Patrick Adams  22:11

Yeah, I was just gonna say the, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Right. That’s insanity. And that’s exactly what you just described. And what Shane and I see in many organizations that we go into where the people are wanting a different result, they want to develop a culture of continuous improvement, but they’re not willing to change their behaviors or their actions. They want to have the same behaviors, the same actions but expect a different result. It’s complete insanity. Right?

 

22:42

Exactly. They want to have better products, and they want to have better processes without changing and it’s not feasible. Absolutely. Another problem is lack of leadership commitment. Lean transformations are a company with strong CLI. They’re safe dedication and support that all levels of the organization. If leadership is not fully aligned with the Lean philosophy, or fails to provide the necessary resources and guidance, implementation efforts are likely to fail. I have seen companies that face difficulties in training and education, successful implementing Lean principles demand the correct training and education for employees at all levels. Sometimes companies don’t have the time to train the employees. And I will come again to the previous discussion that we had with Patrick, they want to change the processes. They want to go to the Lean transformation, but they don’t have time to train the employees and it’s disappointing. Also, if employees misunderstand the concepts and methodologies behind lean, they may have unwittingly difficulty to effectively implementing lean in the day to day work. Sometimes companies refuse to see short term results from lean implementation. Lean transformations often involve an upfront investment of time and resources with the expectation of long term gains, which may not align with the short term focus of some organizations. Sometimes, top management is impatient and can’t wait. Sometimes companies forget that Lean is not a one time initiated but rather a continuous journey of improvement. Companies that fail to foster a culture of continuous improvement, where employees are empowered to identify and implementing this may struggle to sustain over time the benefits of lean. I also observe misalignment with organizational goals. If there is a disconnect between the objectives of the leaders formation, and the overall direction of the company strategy, implementation efforts may lack direction and support. To be honest, I have seen companies that overlook the human element. Lean is not just about optimizing processes. It also includes empowering and engaging employees to contribute to improvements. Companies that neglect the human element of lean, focusing solely on technical aspects may struggle to achieve sustainable results. And of course, last but not least, there is poor implementation strategy. implementing Lean principles requires careful planning and execution. Companies that are asked into implementation without a clear strategy, or sufficient preparation are more likely to encounter barriers and the stumbling blocks along the way. And these are common reasons that I have seen in companies that face difficulties in the entrance formation. Personally, I believe that it’s a joke. If someone believes that the transformation is a piece of cake, while lean methodology can deliver significant benefits when applied effectively, it’s essential to acknowledge that it’s not a one size fits all solution, and may not always produce desired result if implemented incorrectly, or incompletely. And I think Patrick, you describe it perfectly. In your book, there is fake and TruLine. And you have to choose which direction you want to follow, and the leader who will lead you to the correct direction, isn’t it? Right, Patrick?

 

Patrick Adams  26:50

That is correct. Yes, absolutely. And that’s where, you know, as we circle back around to the topic, you know, we talk about Lean sucks. Well, yeah, at company, continuous appearance, which is where I experienced the fake lean, lean sucked there. And people would say that regularly, like, oh, no, here we go, again, another flavor of the month and other, you know, whatever, you know, and I know, our listeners are probably shaking their head and in agreement with me, because maybe they’ve experienced it or, you know, or in some way, they’ve either been there or or they’ve heard about it, you know, so just thinking through that a little bit. And all the things that you’ve talked about Maria, around what you’ve experienced in the Air Force, and how you’ve how you’ve been able to make those connections to the civilian world and companies in the civilian world. You’ve been able to experience and be involved in companies that have a true culture of continuous improvement companies that implement Lean philosophy in the right way. And the result of that companies or organizations military, that are doing it in the right way that the result of that is an improved process. There, they have better quality, better safety, right, all the things that we’ve talked about. So just thinking about the other side, like you said, the fake lean companies or the companies that are not doing it properly. What would you say are some of the most common problems that you’ve experienced that could arise with the people that makes them say, lien sucks, right? When it was applied because of how it was applied? What are some of those problems that you see? 

 

29:11

The first problem that company faces is more waste. You know, lean aims to minimize waste in processes, and failing to identify and address the basic sources of waste can lead to more waste appearing in the existing processes. Imagine implementing Lean tools for minimizing waste and after the implementation, you realize that waste is more if nothing else, it’s disappointing. Another problem is lack of continuous improvement. Continuous improvement is a core tenet of lean methodology. If you’re not fostering a culture of continuous improvement, you may miss opportunities to streamline processes to enhance quality and boost productivity over time. Furthermore, More. Lean is a customer oriented philosophy encouraging organizations to prioritize customer value and satisfaction. If you fail to be aligned with customer needs and preferences, you risk delivering products or services that failed to meet expectations, leading to reduced customer loyalty and market competitiveness. In simply words, your customers will always be disappointed and complain about what they accept from you. And in Greece, we say that the customer is always right. And this is correct. Failure to respond to customer’s needs, means failure to remain competitive in the market. Lean also encourages the use of key performance indicators to track our progress and identify areas for improvement. If you’re not correctly measuring performance metrics, or not using them to guide decision making, then you’re driven to inconsistent results, and you use your resources in inefficient initiatives. And in this way, instead of minimizing costs, you increase it. Moreover, although lean promotes cross functional collaboration, and breaks down silos between departments, and inconsistent implementation of Lean philosophy, can create the opposite. teams operate in isolation are focused solely on departmental goals, creating conflict between competitive departments. And this leads to a culture of blame. Lean philosophy is not necessary to highlight the best or blame the worst, but to identify our weaknesses, and become better through continuous improvement. All the above are disappointed, of course. And when companies faced these difficulties, most of the time they abandon the effort for continuous improvement.

 

Shayne Daughenbaugh  31:57

But it was it was good. You mentioned, you mentioned a lot of things there, you know, about what happens when it’s not applied properly, waste, maybe even more waste, because now the training that you just gave and spent all that time is a waste because it’s not implemented. lack a lack of continuous the idea of continuous improvement, like, hey, it’s just a one time deal. Let’s just we’ll bring in Maria, she’s going to train us all up. And then we’ll be good to go from here on out that customer orientation in focusing on what is the what does the customer want. And then the one of the last ones that really caught my attention here that it wrote down, is the culture of blame. You know, I have seen that so many times just a common problem that arises with Lean, you know, I mean, doesn’t even have to be lean, but, but I do appreciate how you ended all of that with how lean doesn’t, it’s not about pitting the best against the worst, lean is about finding out where deficiencies are, you know, or another way to say it, you know, what are the ways and how can we continue to improve? How can we continue to get better? In I love I love, love, love that idea. Thank you so much for sharing that. As we wrap up. I got one more question here for you that, you know, so we talked about what happens when when Lean is not applied properly. But what would your advice be to companies that are applying when he but maybe they’re not applying it? Right? You know, maybe they’re like, Hey, we’re gonna do this lien thing, we don’t know much about it, we’re just gonna give it a try. But you know, doesn’t have like the discipline or some of the other things. So what would your advice be to that company? Or possibly even companies that, you know, maybe now that they’re listening to this podcast going? Well, man, there’s a lot of pitfalls to lean, I don’t know that we want to do this. You know, maybe this might be maybe this might be too much work, because you just mentioned a whole list of things. So, you know, let’s end on this positive note. You know, lean does suck when not done, right. But you know, what Lean can do some amazing things for people’s lives, for customers for businesses. So what would you get what I’m sorry, I just keep rambling. What do you advise a company who might be trying to implement lean, but but maybe not doing it correctly? According to some of the things that we’ve heard today? Maybe some things came up to their mind? Oh, yeah, I should not do that. Or companies that are wanting to know, hey, is this Lean thing for me? Okay.

 

34:26

When I started the collaboration with the company, the first thing that I tell them is that if we want to compare lean philosophy as a cloth, it is a cloth that is designed and tailored to fit its person. Its company must identify its own needs and particularities set its own goals, and thus make its own plan for the implementation of the lean philosophy. A tactic that work in another company does not necessarily Every work in ours, lean is not a one size fits all solution. As I said before, it requires tailored approaches based on its organizational contexts. Of course, implementing Lean effectively involves understanding processes, identifying waste and redesigning workflows. But I would tell them not to be afraid of resistance to change from paper, it is expected and easy to manage. The problem comes when people don’t resist to change. As time goes by this resistance will be less and less. Companies should be able to quit things that don’t work, you’ll have to observe everything you do every day. And if you see anything that doesn’t work anymore, don’t be afraid to change it. Don’t focus on immediate results. Lean is a long term transformation, you have to keep in mind that you make small steps every day. And after a long time you read the transformation to want to say, be disciplined and goal oriented. And don’t let external factors such as market saves technological advancements or regulatory changes, disruptive Euro leaning ca tips, but you have to remain flexible and to adapt your lean strategies to evolving circumstances. You must sustain momentum so that employees don’t revert to old habits. I know that it’s not easy, but you have to find ways to maintain engagement through regular communication, recognition of achievements and ongoing training to prevent regression, you have to break the siloed thinking and departmental focus, encouraging cross functional collaboration, you have to bring people together and to start thinking procedural and not departmental. You have to to, to see on the processes and not on the department. Practice the philosophy of continuous improvement get a little bit better every single day. And as single sink always said, lean is a way of thinking not a list of things to do. So the first thing we have to do is to start thinking differently.

 

Shayne Daughenbaugh  37:29

Yeah, LinkedIn post, right. I’m using that quote, a way of thinking, Yeah, that’s a good one I’m gonna put down I’m gonna post that on my LinkedIn. Yeah, I especially Maria, I especially

 

Patrick Adams  37:40

loved your example of the the one size doesn’t fit all. And, you know, the textile example of like, the outfit doesn’t fit or rarely, it just made me think about like, you know, some people wear a size 29 inch waist jeans, i There’s no way I could fit into that. one that fits me, you know, so I got to find the right size that fits me. And anyways, no, I really love that example. I loved love that thought, because that’s exactly what what our listeners have to think about is, you can’t take what another company did and think that it’s going to fit for your company, you have a different culture, it’s a different time, there’s a different industry, right? So you have to lean thinking is, is it’s all about scientific thinking it is scientific thing. And it’s, it’s about developing what’s going to work for you based on some of the problems that you might be experienced in your organization, the solutions are going to fit those right, if they fit your culture, they fit the the issues that you have in your industry. So it’s going to be different, it’s not going to be the same as another company. So I really appreciate that example. Thank you. It’s been great to have you on the show. Maria, the time, time flew. We had lots of lots of good conversations. My hope is that people that are listening in that maybe saw the title of this podcast and thought, yeah, lien does suck. I hope that they’re listening to this is going, man, what if we just took some of what Maria said and applied it properly to our organization? What if we did find the right fit for our organization? Could Could we maybe make Lean not suck so much, if we did it properly. Right. And so that’s my hope for our listeners. And I really appreciate you coming on and helping us to kind of navigate that that road. So thank you for coming out and being with us today. Maria. Thank

 

39:40

you, Patrick. Thank you saying it’s an honor to discuss with your you’re also excellent and so experienced in those you serve and support with Lean solutions. And I hope I really hope that people listening to the discussion have have found something helpful for their own journey to continuous improvement. And I hope that that from this podcast, someone have started thinking differently. Because it’s the first step.

 

Patrick Adams  40:11

That is the first step. And don’t stop there, then continue for a second. And no, I appreciate that. Maria, we’re gonna put your a link to your LinkedIn if people do have questions or they want to connect with you. I know you’re out on LinkedIn. And also, you’re you’re involved with the International Lean Six Sigma Institute out of the UK. And so obviously, we have a partnership there as well. So I just appreciate what you do and how you’re continuing to further the mission of getting lean thinking in every organization. I know you’ve spoken at a few conferences and and with the military, the work that you’re doing there, I just appreciate everything that you bring to the table. So thank you again for that. Shane, any last comments?

 

Shayne Daughenbaugh  40:56

Just thank you so much. It’s been fun. I’ve really appreciated your articulate the way you were able to articulate your ideas. I love the connection of your military to civilian and that it just comes comes across you know, pretty straightforward. Thank you so much for your time on that you’ve given us and have yourself a great rest of your evening.

 

Maria Makrygianni  41:18

Thank you. Thank you very much.