In this episode Jim Huntzinger and I discuss TWI, Toyota Kata, and their relation.
1. What is TWI?
2. Why is Toyota Kata important?
3. What is the relationship between TWI and Toyota Kata?
4. Why are TWI and Kata foundational skills?
5. Are TWI and Kata more than just front-line skills?
6. What role does coaching play in these fundamental skills?
Patrick Adams 00:00
Hello, and welcome to the Lean solutions podcast. I have a returning guest today. His name is Jim Huntzinger. Jim has been on the show in the past. I’m excited to have Jim back. If you’re if you’re not familiar with Jim, Jim has held positions in engineering operations management, working to implement and involve lean into operational and business practices. He’s also been involved with several plant design and development and startups. He also spent a number of years consulting with organizations ranging from small privately held to huge global corporations in a variety of different industries. And then in 2005, Jim founded lean frontiers where they produce summits and immersive workshops to build and expand the Lean community. Jim, welcome to the show.
Jim Huntzinger 01:15
No, thank you, Patrick. It’s great to be here again.
Patrick Adams 01:18
Yeah, we were just chatting before we hit record here about some of the amazing workshops, summits that you guys put on, you know, talking specifically about the skills lab and in the simulations that you guys put on, I absolutely love the work that you guys are doing, and obviously, so much value for those individuals who are looking to develop their skills in Lean. So thank you for the work that you guys do at lean frontiers. Well, thank
Jim Huntzinger 01:50
you appreciate it.
Patrick Adams 01:52
So today, obviously, we we’ve talked before, in the past, I believe we talked about Lean Accounting, and quite a few other different subjects that that you’re familiar with. But today, I really want to dive into the topic of twi training within industry. This is a topic that I think many of us are maybe familiar with, or maybe not, but definitely with training and you know, some of the challenges that come with training. TWI is something that can definitely help for so many organizations. And it’s also not something that’s new. It’s been around for quite a while. So I’ll maybe I’ll turn that over to you. Because I’d love for you to tell our listeners a little bit about, you know, Twi, what is it? Where did it come from? You know, a little bit of background maybe around Twi. Do you mind just filling us in on that?
Jim Huntzinger 02:45
Sure. Maybe I’ll start off with just a little bit of my background on how I ran into it, which is related is, you know, going back really 30 years ago, when I first came out, came out of school, went to work for a Toyota Group company, worked there for a few years and left and went up to Milwaukee, Wisconsin and worked for Briggs and Stratton who was doing at that time, even to this day, really, even though that’s 30 years ago, one of the largest physical implementations I’ve seen. And as we were implementing, you know, flow one piece flow within our plant in operation. We were involved a lot with machine design, what time we called Focus factories, we’d say value stream now, but focus factories, machine line layout, assembly, line layouts and other parts of manufacturing. So overall, and even even reflecting back because back then we you know, it was before the internet before there are all these books in great webinars and podcasts like you have talking about all this, we really were somewhat on our own to do it. So even reflecting back we actually from a design standpoint did a nice job on designing flow, designing cells, doing all that pull systems, but where we struggled was to really understand work, even though we use the standard work as we are taught from the Shinji jitsu and all that at the time. We just had a hard time getting to stick and get that arc that I had seen, like when I’d worked at ISON and when I’d spent some time in Japan, so I just knew there had to be some thing else that we just didn’t know about. I just had no idea what. And then a number of years later when I ran into a couple references, actually one reading first time reading one of Jeff like likers books, because first one, John Shook briefly mentions twi training within industries and I thought what the heck does some World War Two program have to do with Toyota Production System? Oh, well, well kept going. A couple months later, I read Misaki mais gamba Kaizen book and he has he actually has a section of chapter there that has several pages about it. I just thought, what the heck does some World War Two program got to do with the Toyota Production System? So I started with trying to dive into it. It’s been a couple years now digging into it had some trouble just you know, it’s an old program I even called some departments in Washington DC trying to find stuff in archives I didn’t find have much luck, I finally ran across something that actually and I can’t remember what it was now that actually told me so I actually ended up getting this report they did in 1945. On the TWI program, got it again, really before the internet, got it went to Kinko’s made a copy of it and like a 250 page report, stuck it on my shelf because I thought 250 Page government report, I said, it didn’t sound really exciting. But it sat there on the shelf for quite a while eaten on me. So I finally pulled it down and started reading it. And as I read it, I was just shocked. So all this stuff that was supposedly this Japanese management, tools, methodology and all that I’m reading, I’m reading in this report from 1945. The thing it did give me it gave me the names of the actual training manuals. So as you know, getting before the internet, I was actually able to go to my local library. And I found that they were supposed to be in depository libraries around the United States, I spent some time going to Milwaukee Public Library, not much luck, but funny sitting on a interlibrary loan and actually ordered a couple of these manuals. So the first one that came in and just happened to be and I really didn’t know what they were, I was just trying to get them because I was curious. First when it came in was actually job methods. So with the library, pick it up, sat down a library started reading through it. And I was so shocked by what I was reading. I mean, I was literally looking behind my shoulders thinking somebody’s gotta be spying on me. I can’t believe what I’m reading this night team that when I think was a 1943, JM manual, and it’s going through listening verbatim all this stuff that we had learned from the Shi Jin Jin, Shinji Jitsu, and some of it anyway, and things things a, according to that. So that’s what I started doing. So I was able to get the other Manos and I green through all this and going oh, my God, this stuff is it’s amazing stuff. It’s what we thought was this Toyota Japanese stuff, which it was not. And that’s what really got me going down that path. So what it was back to the original question, what it was, was during the war, at a time, when we basically sent all the boys overseas to fight. We had this at the time, we had the biggest demand in manufacturing. We have all these green people and that’s where Rosie the Riveter comes in, and a lot of ladies that left the home to go into factories to work that needed training, right? What the TDI programs initial task was, how do we get all these people rent ramped up quickly, safely, effectively, to get out all this war output. And they and it was a huge success. They they modified because they first started with a consulting model and quickly realized, we can’t, we can’t get this done that quickly. So that’s where the training manuals came in, where we needed to create a bulletproof way to deliver this by people who have different levels of experience and knowledge. There’ll be bulletproof. So it was a huge success. So that’s where Job methods came in, which is basically improvement methodology, the rich. The first one was job instruction, how do we train people in 30 job relations is how do we deal with people issues, and all that. So those three programs. Now the way it ties into Toyota was during the occupation post World War Two, it was one of the many programs we deployed to, to Japan, not just Toyota, Japan, and even some into Europe. To do that, well, it came into Toyota in kind of the early real early 1950s. And it came through their training department. Well, during the 30s into the 40s Ono, he owner had been experimenting around with trying to implement flow or since the Ford’s model of you know, early model really, from Highland Park, the Model T of flow manufacturing, and he struggled in machine shop for about eight years, really not any better luck than me, the rest of us have had over the years. And when this came in through the printing department, he really latched on to it because it’s based on a four step methodology. So it’s based on the scientific methodology. Actually, I won’t go into but as a history that goes back actually a couple 100 years to pedagogy out of Germany on how do we educate children, and also some industrial training in the late 1800s in the US and early 1900s. But it made sense to him. So that’s what he utilized so once he started utilizing the TWI programs in his implementation of flow, he began having luck. So for the machine shop, eventually into the assembly and eventually out into their supply banks. So the what we call the Kaizen standard work that is TWI is manifest stated in Toyota over the decades. That’s like a DWI history.
Patrick Adams 09:51
Yeah, no, that’s great. I love that love that history. So it and obviously very interesting to hear even like you said it you can go back even further so there’s a lot more to even learn about this. But when it comes to twi itself and you know, the the use of it and what it actually is, let’s just use a simple example like, you know, training someone to make coffee. For example on a coffeemaker, I mean, how would twi be used like, what would it look like for a twi program to be in place? If I was helping someone to, to you know, make coffee, for example? Yeah,
Jim Huntzinger 10:30
I’d say this I always say notwithstanding other things you need infrastructurally to make you know, programs are what you’re doing is success. That’s all part of it too. As long as also tying it to what your business objectives are. So hold on we think all that is important it plays a role in that so it’s basically this like with a coffee is you you need and this is something thing with Linus first you need to undergo understand and then from going and understand you need to stabilize so really that the J J AI job instructions is really the stabilization platform, how do we get everybody to do it making coffee or making a car or fill in the blank? Yeah, don’t get it right, do it the same way repeatable safely every cup back to the World War Two need safely every time job instruction. And that’s the that’s the important part, I won’t go into detail of the history of it. It’s tied into gestural engineering, it’s tied into Frederick Taylor, it’s tied into the Gilbert’s it’s got this huge even back into Germany, this huge base in other industrial training, that it stabilized the process. So everybody’s doing it the same way, the best way we know how. So it’s a whole stabilization process, and then get out repeated output of whatever the product or procedure is. So with that, so the second part we see job methods was improvement. So job, maisons improvement, so you stabilize, then you want to improve, so it’d be like stair step you stabilize, then you make the improvement, well, then you need to re stabilize the improved method, back to J AI. So JIJMJI Jam. And that’s how Toyota gets this trajectory of improvement, it goes like this, we’re all the rest of us, including me back in my early days, before I knew about this, you’re always kind of on this type of an arc of I just can’t get that good sustainability into it. So that’s the importance of that’s why it’s so foundational. So really, the whole Kaizen the improvement, JM, the standard work, which is j, i and j, m, to the new improvement method. So that’s how they get on a trajectory, then a bigger context would be the Jr. So obviously, with processes, it’s always really the essence is people. So you’re always going to have people issues. So Jr, is really a leadership methodology. So how do you create this environment so you can have a good environment to stabilize, improve, stabilize, improve? Well, you need to deal with people issues, ideally, before they become a big problem, but it’s also a methodology, all based on the four step scientific method of how do you resolve the problems when they become bigger. So you create this environment where you can stabilize, improve, stabilize, improve in a good safe, you know, you know, safe environment, safe environment, just from problems in resolving problems. See you. So getting into that whole continuous improvement, solving problems. That’s what all those all those are solving, solving different problems, but they all coordinate and work together.
Patrick Adams 13:30
Sure, yeah, that makes sense. And obviously, there’s very specific documents that are utilized. You mentioned standard work and so there’s very specific structure around that as you’re working through each of those. And you and you also mentioned Hoshin, and how this you know, should tie to some kind of a long term goal or challenge which almost brings it back to kata, right so where does Toyota kind of fit into this and for those that are listening in that maybe you know, maybe are new to Toyota kata haven’t haven’t heard that word before. Maybe can you just give us a just a brief explanation of that and then talk to us about how Toyota kata and twi kind of have a relationship. How do they come together then?
Jim Huntzinger 16:31
Absolutely. So Toyota Kata is really just it’s a it’s a, it’s a name Mike Rother gave when he did the research, because he went and research companies that are using kind of these these Toyota ish practices and you know, human behaviors, and all that. So a car is a Japanese word for just like a repeated behavior. So the analogy is used if for those who have seen the movie, The Karate Kid, where Mr. Miyagi says, you know, wax on wax off. So the wax on wax off, he’s Mr. Miyagi, he’s teaching, teaching, I can remember the kid’s name and era. I can’t remember. But anyway, teaching him a Kata. So it’s really his hand movements he’s teaching, the kid gets frustrated, because he just puts the X is supposed to be teaching me karate. But he’s teaching him these net, these instinctive hand movements, which is a kind of a repeated pattern of behavior. So when you get into climax scene, when he’s in a fight, he’s not having to think about these basic skills, he could think about the higher level complexity of the of the guy he’s competing against. So he just does he’s automatically. That’s the same thing with Toyota kata Mike was researching, what are these basic behavioral patterns that he’s seeing within his Toyota or Toyota behavior in organizations? And those are caught or Toyota kata, these Toyota behavior patterns. But the interesting and a tie in to the TWI is a lot of what’s Mike was Mike was seeing from those patterns, not exclusively, but a lot of it are these patterns of behavior that were established and set up by Twi. Have you know of the question because all four of those when you go through them based on the scientific method, j, i, j, m, and Jr. All have questions if they ask. So that whole questioning environment all plays a role in that to do that you asked these questions in order to understand in order to do analysis in order to make decisions on what’s our next condition. Now, the reason another reason cod is important is and this is one thing going back to Oh no. So one thing oh no, they say he quit using JM because it is it’s very it’s it’s really It’s ice techniques, industrial engineering techniques. And it’s very point focused. And he was looking at the somewhat the bigger picture, which we might say value stream, how do we make this whole value stream this whole line flow and all that? What’s interesting is I, as I discovered these things with Twi, the first thing I noticed was the elements of JM even though Supposedly he didn’t do it, he actually is doing it, because the questions he would go through and ask, were really found a foundational to Job methods. The questions involve the job methods, which are questions you asked in order to analyze the process and make improvements on the process and are also related particularly to the j i and j. M as well. But that’s a Toyota is that’s why you set this challenge. And then you go through these iterative steps and there’s always questions involved, or even the the coaching Kata is the coach asking these questions of you, to get you to think through to get you to understand it’s about understanding and analyzing. So if you look at the likely improvement, kata, it’s really asking you these questions to take a look at this bigger picture, although you certainly can hone in on the smaller picture in the iterative steps. And then the coaching Kata is important because it’s a way to ask each other, you know, questions to get you to think to get you to think through it to get you to consider things that you may not have considered doing that before. So that’s why That’s so important because it’s really taking these twi behavioral patterns, expanding it out. So you look at the look at the bigger picture and also narrow into look at the smaller picture as you go through iterative steps of improvement.
Patrick Adams 20:13
I love that. So, Jim, is this something that is more advanced? You know, is this something that companies should say? Well, we have to get all these other things in place first, before we go to adopting Toyota, Toyota kata or Twi, you know, or is this something that is more foundational? And and that should be in the beginning? And then you should build on that? Where would you say this falls?
Jim Huntzinger 20:39
Both? They’re not going to scrape it this way. So it is those are absolutely foundational, you need those. So the important thing with it goes back to like I said, what are the what are the organization objectives? What are your pain points? What are you trying to do as an organization, you need to go to the ocean? What do you need go through that process? Because you just don’t do all this for the sake of doing it, you do it in order to resolve business problems and hit business needs. So you really need to go through that analysis because you need to go okay, what do we need to do? And some of them very well may not be twi and maybe other things you need to do. But what should we do first, because some companies may need to start with JPI. Some companies may need to start with the improvement kata. It just depends, right? It depends. What are your circumstances, what are your needs, and you need to go from need. So you really need to do that analysis to do it, and then build from there. So as you do that, you learn how to become skillful and experienced that any particular one, you also visually get okay, maybe now’s the time we bring in J in or maybe we run into a problem we need Jr. Okay, maybe now’s the time we needed that. And again, it’s really very much dependent on what are the organizational needs, the pain points, the existing culture. That’s, and that’s why that’s so important. So let it build on itself. I also say this, whether it’s twi or kata, I’ll say if you’re not using twi or kata, you know, whichever one, you start with the same in three months, that’s a problem. Because you need to build that base competency with it, use it as it’s taught and build that base competency. Now, the other side of that is, if you’re using twi are kind of the same in three years, that’s a problem. That means you’re really not truly learning, growing, understanding how to use this. Now, even though you start on a shop floor uses on a shop floor. And if you leave and look at Toyota eventually translates up into bigger projects and bigger problems in management things, again, utilizing that same scientific thinking pattern and asking those questions and the whole coaching aspect, do it. So that’s why you know, three years down the road, you really should be using them, you’re probably using some circumstances the same but in some differently, because you your experience, now you have bigger problems you’re considering you can do that. I know a guy that was one of the early adopters on twi years ago, that he told me years later, he said, and he was an engineering manager. He said, we first started out he said, I could not have Grass Valley when he use this on my engineering projects. He said now, I can’t imagine how I couldn’t use them on my engineering projects. So he learned and grew with them. And you know, brought those along. And again, if you look at Toyota, those same behavioral patterns, these cutters, they use, you know, really all levels in the organizations now that they’re, what, seven decades down the road with it with these with these fundamental skills.
Patrick Adams 23:23
Right. Yeah, that? Absolutely, yeah. So that, and that that is such a great answer. You know, obviously, understanding the operations or understanding the challenges, the problems that you’re dealing with, and then responding accordingly. is obviously, you know, a great approach, what would you say would be the, what would be an example of of a challenge, or a problem that someone’s dealing with that you would say, you know, Jr, is the answer, or J M, is the answer to this, like, this is when you would bring in Jr. J. And based on this particular challenge that you’re dealing with, or this and I know, there’s probably a large range of those, but can you just give us maybe just one or two examples of what that might? What would be the problem that you would then say, you let’s adopt Jr?
Jim Huntzinger 24:13
Yeah. Si, si, si, si, you’re working on the maybe some type of kaizen project trying to make improvements or to make changes and on a on a manufacturing line. And for whatever reason, your people just just aren’t getting it, you’re getting some resistance. So I guess I’m gonna kind of answer your question. But so it’s really an experience, obviously, the more experience you get, the easier this gets to analyze as well. So you may go, Well, you know, you know, start asking questions really about questions is so you know, why are they giving resistance and want to be going and talk to them? Go and find out goes again, but the problem is or asking questions, is it is it maybe maybe we just have maybe we have poor training, or training methods, so maybe it is it maybe it is a GI problem? Or maybe just Write of reason, there’s just some resistance, it’ll believe it. And that might be more of a Jr. Problem. So you go through it. And I’m here in front of me, there’s pocket cards of questions. So there are certain questions related to in the glass that would help you analyze, do I have a gr problem? Do I have a GI problem? Do I have a JM problem, or something like that? So you just go through and analyze that go gather the data, make an analysis, make a hypothesis, and then actually wait on a hypothesis, then compare the hype, you know, the result of your experiment with what your expectation on the hypothesis is? And you may get it wrong at first. And that’s fine. It’s all part of it. You make it Oh, I thought this may be a GI prompt. And actually, you know, this, this Bob over there is agitated for whatever reason. So maybe this really is a Jr. So maybe I need to go back into the Jr. and focus in over there with the JR issue to get that resolved. And maybe it also is a GI problem. But first I need to resolve this, Jr. and find out what the problem is is Bob Bob and how can we resolve that? So then we could come back in with the with the JPI countermeasure.
Patrick Adams 26:04
Makes sense. Absolutely. I appreciate that. And just in hearing you talk through and you’re you’re talking about questions that are being asked and ways that managers are responding. And I’ve I’ve seen twi and Kata used with frontline workers, and in a lot of other ways, but I think that there is this maybe this misconception out there that TWI is only for frontline workers. And again, what I’m hearing you say is, you know, use this as a way to develop your scientific thinking, ask questions, which then begs me to the question of you know, does DWI and Kata is more than just frontline skills? Is there more that is offered through that?
Jim Huntzinger 26:53
Yeah, very much. So now, certainly, if you look down, specifically, at the three J programs, they are very frontline orientated. But it’s really about the thinking and behavioral patterns and questioning behind them, that those translate up to say, same thing, obviously, with cod, I mean, you could have a challenge is we can get this machine to, to, to, to get to stay in a inequality range we need that could be something a little more micro that you’re doing. But it may be something a little more macro from from a cost standpoint from a challenge is GE we’re only hitting this many parts per month. And we need to increase that by 15%. How do we go about doing that? So so but it’s really all those those patterns that you learn and the questions with them. And those will translate and ascend up back to, again, when you first start out with and sometimes when most the time, it’s difficult to see well, how will this work with it some big management problem, but after you get experience, listen and do it and get practice with it. And again, it’s it’ll be integrated, because you will go, you will go to the corporate problem, you know, right away, you’ll work your way up. So here’s a problem out on the front line, here’s maybe a problem in the department, here’s a problem maybe with you know, part A couple of departments working together, here’s maybe a project, we may work on it, eventually that’ll transcend up and with the experience, you will know how to do it. And that’s part of it too, is is knowing how things interact. Because you just aren’t always here. And then you move to here, j i j, that is a lot of times you’ll be in the middle of will say maybe a Jr, and maybe in the middle and you say hey, actually, there’s some kind of coaching that will roll in here too. So really, these are all patterns of behaviors that really should be interlocked. And that’s really, when probably you look a lot of the research Mike did. They’re using different patterns behaviors interlocked in interim with each other on resolving problems. So it gets what’s the circumstances telling me what to do? And the more you practice it like the kid in the Karate Kid, he doesn’t think about it. He just immediately switches to the one he needs based on the circumstances in.
Patrick Adams 29:00
Right, exactly. And you brought up Karate Kid again, which which is brings me back to Mr. Miyagi. And I think about the it was Dan Daniel Russo. Right. Yeah, that Yeah, yeah. But it brings me back to think about Mr. Miyagi as a coach. Right. And then, you know, then I asked the question, you know, where does the coach fall into all of this? And why is it important to have a coach when it comes to, you know, these fundamental skills of twi and kind of what role do they play because obviously, without Mr. Miyagi, I mean, would Karate Kid have have been as successful as he is, you know? So that’s my question to you is, what role does the coach play in all of this?
Jim Huntzinger 29:48
Yeah, the reason it coach is so important is because a lot of a lot of times you can’t see your circumstances. It could be just because your lack of experience, certainly, it could just be your You’re, you’re my optic on a particular project you’re doing so they will pull you in and out of that. And that’s the other thing, even with Mr. Miyagi and coaches is you never answer it for them. You try to ask them questions to get them to think through the answer, because sometimes the coach actually didn’t know the answer himself. So he’s kind of contemplating and wondering, I’m not quite sure what the answer is trying to help you through that. So he’s looking at it from the outside in to help you analyze on the inside and also pull the things from the outside to think things to analyze it, the things that make your box a little bit bigger to think things through. So that’s quite important. So the code I mean, the coach can certainly be someone above you, a coach can be a colleague to you, there’s a lot of coaching you can do that we used to do that years back, we did in a much more primitive form with guys I worked with, I just go, I’m working on this, I’ve done okay, on this, I’m struggling this, you know, what do you think that question, what do you think? And they just start asking me questions, and they just have a different perspective. And I just stopped that? Well, that’s a good question. I hadn’t really thought about that. So that’s part of it, too, is just bringing in a different look, a different question, a different perspective, a different experience, that helps everybody helps the coach helps you helps everybody grow in that process. And again, that’s what it’s about developing people and growing them just to have that same thing to as they go to coach somebody, they have a coach, but they’re also coaching, too. So you have all these loops of growth and coaching going on. And being back to the organization could do that and do that. Well, in time competition, what competition do they have? Because they’re just growing and skill and ability at such a rapid rate?
Patrick Adams 31:33
Yeah, well, and not only that, but you know, if individuals are, are learning the right way, and they’re being empowered to make changes and improve things, your your turnover rate is going to get to be reduced as well, because people feel more confident in their jobs. They feel like they have a voice. And, you know, they’re being trained in a in a very structured manner. So all of those things are important for individuals to feel comfortable in, in the job that they’re working in. Right.
Jim Huntzinger 32:05
Yeah. Fill fill fill valued. And Phil they bring value.
Patrick Adams 32:09
Absolutely. So Jim, just to kind of close up here, we’ve talked about a lot of things in a very short amount of time. And we’ve only scratched the surface on twi and Kata and how those two relate to each other. But how would someone that’s listening in get more information about twi would there? If they if they wanted to know more? If they wanted to go deeper? They wanted to to be involved? Maybe in any workshop or something like that? Where would they go? What would be the next step for someone?
Jim Huntzinger 32:43
They can, they can certainly go to our website, lean frontiers.com. And there’s probably three things there they can do. One is we actually have a resource pages, and there’s certainly one on twi and Kata. So there’s articles, there’s videos. And actually we have some videos and actually even a video certification. Their certificate that they can do to go to learn more, those are there. We also have what we call our skill point workshops, we have a skill point for job instruction that people are doing literally doing hands on, not like it’s a 10 hour training. But doing in a hands on environment. We have a skill point for Toyota kata, and it’s still boring for coaching kata, so they actually learn it, get the 10 hour and plus practice it over and over again. And then also too, we have a new event that we have called Skills Lab, where that’s going to be coming up in October, October 17 through 19th, where they actually will learn all these skills, not get certified but learn all of them what they are and how they interlink and utilize them all you know together. And of course finally there’s we have the the kata con that we do each year annually. There’ll be next year in April, and twi summit we do in April where you know, kind of a those communities come together and learn and share together. And all that you found through the website.
Patrick Adams 34:05
Yeah, powerful summits. Definitely a place that you know, those that are listening in. You need to be there next year for both of those conferences. And for that that skills lab in October. I’m already thinking of a few people that I’d love to send to the skills lab. I think that that would be super beneficial for many people to be able to just walk through, you know every step of of twi and really get a better understanding and deeper understanding of how to apply that within their organization. Now, people can doesn’t matter the industry. I mean, what if someone’s in healthcare? What if someone’s in manufacturing? What if someone’s in the government? Does all this apply? You know, no matter what industry?
Jim Huntzinger 34:51
Yeah, and that’s a great question. So yes, it does because even though we use the simulator we have as a manufacturing, that’s the backdrop we use, where we really teach Under the skills so the skill so the people and the process and the skill to utilize it is what we’re really teaching just the manufacturing simulators. Just the backdrop. So even if you and we’ve had people that have been in healthcare that I think then in maybe insurance in some, you know, information stuff, because it again, it’s about learning the skill set and go apply that skill in your own environment.
Patrick Adams 35:23
Perfect. Well, Jim, it’s been great to have you back on the show, obviously. Again, we only scratched the surface here, but I just appreciate you sharing and again, all the work that you guys do at lean frontiers for the Lean community. So thank you again for being back on the show. Yeah, well, thank
Jim Huntzinger 35:40
you for having me, Patrick. I always enjoy speaking with you.
Patrick Adams 35:44
All right. Take care Jim.